With the way the game spawns monsters, a level 30 party should be able to handle the more dangerous areas, namely: Mount Gigas unexplored area, Southeast Wilderness (along with the Temple battle), Bayjin Shallows (Nessie), Sea Caves, Mountain Wilderness, Rapax areas (though these are usually against lower-level Rapax with high HP; Best to use instant death spells).

The Mountain Wilderness can spawn Molten Scorchers reliably; They are easy to counter, either by casting Element Shield, or by casting Heal All every round. Water is their weakness, and they give great experience.

Around level 35 or 40, you should be able to dominate the entire game besides Ascension Peak. By then, you can dominate the AP bosses (Pee Wee, Souleater), as well as any level 40 Magma Scorchers that spawn.

Though it's theoretically possible to reach level 50, it would probably take forever and a year for this to happen.

You don't even need to Heal All every single round, as their breath attacks aren't that dangerous, particularly once they've used up some of their stamina. (Their breath attacks, I believe, follow the same rules as yours.) This is especially true for high HP parties, where you can get away with not healing for longer, but even lower HP parties aren't in too much trouble. (If you have just one low HP character, there's also Guardian Angel.)

I have seen, quite often, that an enemy scorcher would fall unconscious because it used up so much stamina with its breath weapon; this becomes even more likely if you're using weapons that actively drain stamina (like the Stun Rod (I really like that weapon) or the vampire chain).

It's a shame that enemies don't have limited SP the way they have limited stamina.

By the way, have you ever right-clicked on an enemy to check its health only to notice that it had 0 HP remaining and was experiencing the "Dead" condition? I have.

The reason I mentioned casting Heal All every round is that the Bard and Gadgeteer can do it "for free", stamina-casting with their instruments/gadgets. This is not the party I'm running.

I really love how W8 (unlike games such as Morrowind), doesn't penalize the player upon not maxing the Endurance/Vitality stat. Meaning that HP/Stamina/SP gains are not dependent on how early the character puts points into said attribute. It's the same benefit, early or late, no rush.

Hit points are usually just fine with most classes keeping Vitality at base (since it is a controlling attribute for no skills). The only exception would usually be casters, who should not be in melee range, unless built for such purpose (Battle Priest comes to mind, but even they wouldn't be as good as even a Bard or Gadgeteer).

The Tier 1 characters are the Fighter and hybrids (Lord, Valkyrie, Ranger, Ninja, Monk, and Samurai). The Tier 2 characters are the thieves (Rogue, Bard, and Gadgeteer). The Tier 3 characters are the casters (Bishop, Priest, Alchemist, Psionic, and Mage). Note that it will be very easy for T1 to get 3X3 (3 swings per attack, 3 attacks per round), while T2 will take some time (level 34 IIRC). T3 had better be happy with 2X2.

The Vampire Chain, while great on paper, didn't do much for my Priest last party. He would probably have been better off with a Staff of Doom (he wasn't built for melee combat; Intelligence/Piety/Speed/Senses maxed).

Enemy casters having unlimited SPs seems like a cheat; This is why I overlevel, to combat this unfairness (though I like seeing enemy casters fizzle and backfire; It seems that some checks go into what the enemy can cast).

I don't do that, as I use a phased combat option, instead of continuous combat; I will check on enemies once the round ends.

There is no contest with the Fighter: He should dual-wield, taking maximum advantage of Berserking and KOing (if he manages to KO an enemy in melee, the next Berserk attack will be 3X damage). A Fighter with a shield seems too defensive, with the best HPs and best armor selection in the game. A Fighter with a two-handed weapon seems to be missing out on the raw damage of dual-wielding.

The Rogue follows, but for a different reason. He can't use two-handed weapons (except for the Staff of Doom, which anybody can use, and he can't Backstab with it). He has Stealth and Reflextion, granting him the best AC of the party, making a shield almost useless. The only way to go is dual-wielding, Sword and Dagger (there are no off-hand Swords, except for Eastern classes).

The Alchemist, Psionic, and Mage would be best with a Staff of Doom (which of these classes uses Daggers)?

The question is with Bishops and Priests (no Daggers). They have the Mace and Flail weapons set, something which the Rogue, Bard, and Gadgeteer don't even get (nor do the other casters).

With the Bishop and Priest, you could go 3 ways:

1. Whips (Bullwhip, Cat O' Nine Tails, Vampire Chain). Extended range, one hand (can be used with a shield, half the Strength damage bonus).

2. Diamond Eyes or Mauler, with a shield (casters can't dual wield). Full Strength damage bonus. Close range, you had better build them for melee combat.

3. Staff of Doom. Two-handed, extended range weapon. Full Strength damage bonus, status effects, easy to cancel out the -1 HP drain. This allows your casters to stay out of close range combat, and to build for a caster.

And penalty! Many full casters, particularly Bishop builds, neglect Strength, and for them a whip would be a better choice.

A caster *can* dual wield; they just don't get the skill so (barring class change) they aren't good at it. The Mauler needs 50 Strength to equip. This means that for some builds (like the fast caster Bishop) that weapon isn't an option. Also, if you have less than 70 Strength and then get hexed, the weapon will be forcibly unequipped, and re-equipping it once you recover takes an extra turn for the character (if done during battle) and is easy to forget. Furthermore, don't forget that RPCs moved out of their comfortable areas suffer -20 to stats and skills, so I wouldn't give this weapon to, say, Vi unless you've raised her Strength to at least 90.

Other items with stat/skill requirements, like the Amulet of Life and the Strong Bow, have this issue with hex as well. To avoid hex unequip risk with the Strong Bow, you're going to need 105 Strength, so you're going to need an Ankh of Might or other strength boost. (Note that the Giant's Sword isn't the best option here; while having it equipped might prevent a hex from uneqipping the bow, as soon as you swap (or auto-swap) to the bow while hexed, you fail to meet the Strength requirement and unequip the bow.)

Bard and Gadgeteer: Sword and Shield. Just like the Rogue, they can't use two-handed weapons. They don't have good off-hand weapons (no Mace and Flail skill, so no Diamond Eyes; No Rogue-only Thieves' Dagger). This gives them a good mix of offense and defense (*Light Sword* and *Light Shield* come to mind, as I did in my last party).

Valkyrie: Definitely steered towards Polearms, as she gets a bonus in this skill, while allowing her to hit from extended range. She can cheat death, making Shields less useful for this class.

Ranger: He can do anything, however, is average at close combat (dual-wielding is not recommended). Rangers are usually flank or rear characters, and non-Mook Rangers would benefit from the extended range of Polearms. Either that, or a flank Ranger can hold their own with a Sword and Shield.

I have no experience with the other hybrids.

I should have mentioned that, though it usually goes without saying. As far as I know, all non-casters get the Dual Weapons skill; Once properly developed, they can reliably hit with both weapons. Casters *can* use a weapon in the off-hand, however, you might as well not, as their chance to hit will be terrible.

Staves of Doom are farmable, from Rapax Corpses. One is guaranteed, in the Mountain Wilderness waterfall. There are two set Rapax Corpses next to Rafe's cell, right after entering the Rapax Rift. Further in, there is an underground bunker with more Rapax Corpses, so you're guaranteed, with a lot of patience, to have as many SoDs as you want for your party.

Unlike the specialist casters (Priest, Alchemist, Psionic, and Mage), with 36 or 37 spells, the Bishop has access to all 101 spells. This makes Piety more important for the specialist casters (I maxed it for all 4 last party). The Bishop is guaranteed to have all the level 1-5 spells, except for level 1 Mind Stab and level 2 Holy Water, which must be picked (a book of Holy Water is farmable, without much difficulty, from the Savant Orb guarding the Savant Tower, though this is only for one Bishop). All level 6 and 7 spells (except for Banish, buyable and findable), must be picked.

This time around, with the massive SP (mana) pool available to the Bishops, they will ignore Piety. I'm going for Battle-Bishops, probably the most versatile class in the game, able to fight decently in melee, range, and magic combat. Towards that end, they will max Strength, Intelligence, Speed, and Senses. This will unlock PowerStrike, PowerCast, SnakeSpeed, and Eagle Eye.

Rangers can dual-wield just fine. They get the skill, and they can use both Hammer and Diamond Eyes, so they can certainly dual wield without major issues. (I'd say they're better than Samurai for that build, actually.)

Then again, the Mook stats and the Ranger stats just coincide so well that Mook Ranger is the sort of setup the game steers you towards, and that doesn't take that long to get expert skills. (Probably hard to find any combination that can get Eagle Eye faster than a Mook Ranger.) But what if I've already killed all of them? Is there some place where they can spawn as random encounters? (If not, I wouldn't put it in the "farmable" category.) Generally, I've found Piety to not make enough of a difference to be worth the stat points. Again, I don't count something as farmable if it's only dropped by a couple of non-respawning creatures (in this case 2, as Lord Braffit also has it on his drop list).

Also, those spells might only be considered guaranteed if:
* You are willing to either repeatedly camp or save/load until the shopkeeper stocks it.
* You join both the Umpani and the T'Rang.
* You don't eliminate the shopkeeper before getting all the spellbooks form them. (In particular, this can be an issue for Kunar, Crock, and (if he gets into a fight with hostile Rapax) Ferro.)

Highest reasonable lvl for wiz8 vanilla is ~20 for a not "below optimum" themed party, ymmv.
Savant can be beaten by lvl 13-14 party, with a substancial(?25%?) risk og getting wiped,
aka what makes playing and last not least winning the game far more interesting in my book.

While i think the spirit of the game, as intended by the devs, is to not reload
farming shop items seems fine to me, not only for the obvious supply shortage of thrown weapons.
IRL you will also postpone drilling holes in the walls of your house if the stores dont currently sell suitable dowels.

However, if you are into savescumming for loot,
it is possible to get 9 '*light shields* and 8 *light swords*.
Jan Ette may drop the shield, the chance is 1d2 X 1/59, ~1/40

The 7 buccaneers at bayjin shallows have a 20% chance each to drop loot at all,
the loot table states this loot, aka "Bayjin Good" has no lvl sensor,
so every party is eligible for everything in the list.
According to CF, Bayjin Good has a quantity of 4 to 6 (2D2+2) items assigned,
but i dont think i have ever seen a ghost drop 5 or even 6 items,or only 1, usually its 2 or 3, rarely 4.
If you kill the group of 7 ghosts(20% chance each) 5 times you should get an avg total of 7 treasure bags.
Light sword has a 1/200 chance to be found the shield 2/200,
times 20% and an estimated avg empiric number of 2.5 items for each drop
thats 1/400 or 1/200 for each ghost to drop the sword or shield, i.e. 1/286 ...
The chance to get 7 swords from the 7 ghosts would be 1/1.638400000000000000
i.e. if the "kill,check loot and reload save" cycle is 1sec, the avg time to savescum them is 3+M years

Ofc that will drastically increase if you also demand to get the shield together with the sword :D

Rangers can dual-wield just fine, just like everybody else (except casters). However, if you have a Fighter in your party (like I do), the Fighter will do much more damage with the only Diamond Eyes in the game. This makes the Human Ranger stick with Polearms (ideally, all six characters should be able to hit enemies in front of the party).

Regarding the Human vs Mook Ranger: The Human will actually max Strength, Dexterity, Speed, and Senses faster than the Mook (this is rare, but the Mook has poor Speed and Piety). The Human wins out in the long run, with the loss of the Giant's Sword (the Human can still equip Polearms for extended range, of which there are many decent ones).

After the 90s, the internet was made widely available. This game was created in 2001, when I was 19. There is no excuse nowadays not to know how to get farmable items.

The same goes for the *Light Sword* and *Light Shield*. Jan-Ette can drop a *Light Shield* (not hard to farm, as she drops items after her death, and you can skip her dialogue). There is a single chest in Bayjin that can spawn a *Light Sword* and/or *Light Shield*, but chests are so ridiculous to farm, that it doesn't seem worthwhile.

The best bet is the 7 set Buccaneer Ghosts, which I wouldn't bet on getting BOTH a *Light Sword* AND a *Light Shield* from any single one (the chances are multiplied together). Ideally, you would have a party setup where a few *Light Swords*, and a few *Light Shields*, if any, are more than enough to be overpowered.

I agree with you *now* about Piety, but a few years ago, when I ran my first MDP, Piety seemed more important.

I have that covered. Both Bishops picked Mind Stab, and one Bishop picked Holy Water. The other Bishop will farm the Savant Orb for it, with a 25% drop chance. I don't see what the problem is.

Camping/reloading is an annoying feature of the game, for the vendors. I guess, just be happy that all but 2 of the level 1-5 spells are guaranteed? Kunar: Don't turn him in. Crock: Make sure your list is complete before whacking him. Ferro: Do the Al-Sedexus quest before talking to him.

A level 35-40 party can dominate the game before AP, when enemies scale to match the party's level. However, at this level, they can handle the AP bosses, such as Amit and Pee Wee, Souleater, and the Dark Savant (none of the other bosses are that interesting).

Actually, I'd put the range at more like 20-25, with the higher levels for players who are more thorough, or those new to the game who might get lost at some point, or who just like the power those higher levels give your spellcasters. (Offensive spells, after stagnating in the mid-late teens, actually become good as you progress through the early 20s, with the 4 nukes plus Tsunami.)

There is; not everybody looks every little detail up online.

Also, as I've said, many of the items you mention are not what I would consider farmable.

I could also point out that I consider gameplay that makes it necessary to frequently reload to get specific random treasure to be bad game design. In particular, I consider random non-respawning treasure to be bad game design for this type of game. (This issue affects some other games. It's why, for example, in the SaGa 2 remake, I only check a few specific excavation points (like the ones with magical circuitry), and one reason I don't use Espers (lots of reloading if you want a specific high-level skill from that battle, which you can't get elsewhere until considerably later).)
Not farmable by my definition. If you've tried to get it once, you can't try again without reloading your save.

The problem is that, unless you reload, you only get to roll that 25% drop chance *once* (or twice if you kill Lord Braffit, but who does that?). If it doesn't drop there, you have no choice but to reload if you want that particular item.

Don't like to do that:
* I prefer to have Rapax hostile so that I can farm them for XP and treasure that sells for more money. (These *do* count as farmable because they respawn.)
* Part of the Al-Sedexus quest makes me a bit uncomfortable (not to mention that, in the original (1.0) release of the game, you could not do this quest with an all-female party).
* (Worth noting that, of all the content in the game, this is the only bit that I'd consider NSFW.)

There is no rush to become Cosmic Lords; Getting all 3 artifacts, placing them in their spots on AP, and killing the Dark Savant is enough.

Level 24 is when full casters, and level 28 is when hybrids, can max out their magic. Level 31 is when you can get any treasure from chests, and when Humans will max out 4 attributes.

I don't like how item drops (and chest spawns), are purely luck-based; I play my party so that they always get the result that benefits the party the most. It should be all about skill.

Taking this thought experiment all the way, you could reasonably get (with a few days of grinding), 4 *Light Swords*, and 4 *Light Shields*. I would not think that any Buccaneer Ghost would drop BOTH items; I just accept that I will get one item from each. You could get 4 *Light Swords* from 4 separate BGs, and 3 *Light Shields* from 3 separate BGs. The 4th *Light Shield* would come from Jan-Ette. This might take a day or two, with the BGs having a 20% drop rate.

This would result in 4 characters being fully decked out with *Light Swords* and *Light Shields*.

Same, but the biggest issue I have is that you can't keep retrying for the drops without reloading an old save.

Wizardry 1-5 never required doing this sort of thing for drops, nor did Bard's Tale 1-3. In fact, even Final Fantasy 4, which is notorious for having ultra rare drops (most infamously the Pink Tail, but there's also rare summon spells), doesn't require reloading if you don't get the drop; you can just keep fighting enemies until the particular enemy shows up again for another chance at the drop.

Edit: I forgot to mention disarming the bomb. So it goes: Get the Astral Dominae (Kill Don Barlone), get the Chaos Moliri peacefully by switching it with the fake AD, get the Destinae Dominus from Marten's ghost (the carrier protected with the Serenity Helm). Disarm the bomb (must fight the Savant Behemoth inside the Savant Tower, and reach the portal at the other end, to 100% the game). Obviously, kill the Dark Savant, to become Cosmic Lords.

I'm trying to keep this forum alive, grasping at straws.

I would consider the "Boss" enemies of the game to be (must fight to 100% the game): This is a Lawful Good party, with the exception of the Rattkin (no good), and Crock (kidnapper, and can access his chest).

Lower Monastery: King Crab, Gregor.

Arnika-Trynton Road: Mummy (Graveyard; Drops Mummy Dust), Rattus Rattus.

Rattkin Tree/Sixth Bough: Milano Calzone, Don Barlone, 2 Rattkin Breeders.

Marten's Bluff: Raven Rapax (can squish with machine).

Southeast Wilderness: Sorceress Queen and 2 Death Lords.

Rapax Away Camp: Rapax King

Mountain Wilderness: Death Lord.

Bayjin Shallows: Nessie

Sea Caves: Keeper of the Crypt (Death Lord).

Rapax Rift: Lava Lord, El-Dorado, Al-Sedexus.

Ascension Peak: Amit and Pee Wee, Souleater. 2 named slimes, 1 giant scorcher (Furor), Rapax Prince and your illegitimate daughter.

Final Battle: Dark Savant or Bela.