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The Fighter is supposed to be the King/Queen of melee combat (getting a Berserk 2X damage bonus (at the cost of slightly less chance to hit), a class bonus to the Close Combat skill, KO% with all weapons (both melee and ranged), and Stamina regeneration, having sacrificed magic and physical skills, such as Locks and Traps (while levelling quickly).

The Rogue is similar, although it may be apples and oranges to the Fighter, as they have a random chance of 1X-4X Backstabbing damage multiplier. However, as a tier 2 character (same grouping as Bard and Gadgeteer), they have less swings per attack, and attacks per turn, only getting 3X3 at level 34 (this is assuming white encumbrance, maxed Dexterity and Speed, maxed Close Combat/Ranged Combat and weapon skills).

The Bard, Gadgeteer, and Ranger are probably the most mediocre at melee, as none of them have anything to stand apart from the others (a Mook Ranger, with the Giant's Sword, is probably similar to a non-Mook Ranger using a good Polearm).

The Lord, while getting a class bonus to Dual Weapons, isn't going to be doing the damage of the Fighter and Rogue. (Though has Divinity magic, as a trade-off).

The Valkyrie get a Polearms skill bonus, allowing her to reach 3X3 early on, however, she isn't doing as much damage as a Fighter would with the same weapon (though she can Cheat Death). Again, she has Divinity magic.

From here on, the complicated nature of the Eastern classes presents itself. I know nothing of the Ninja, Monk, Samurai classes. They seem like too much work.
Post edited July 03, 2024 by RChu1982
the Lord does get to use powerful magic items without dropping dead from their drain... the value here depends if you find those items

for my money the robot monk gets the 'best' title because he can kick their asses without any gear
So, let's compare melee capabilities for each group (in terms of attack rating growth):

Warriors:
* Fighters are going to be the best in most situations because of Berserk. (There are some situations where you don't want to go Berserk, plus some people may feel it makes Fighters *too* powerful (particularly later on) and not use them.)
* In the absence of Berserk, Fighters are best at fighting styles not covered by other classes. This notably includes weapon + shield, where the weapon isn't something another class gets a bonus in. (Even with Swords, Samurai sword selection is a bit limited.)
* (I will be assuming no Berserk attack option for Fighters for the rest, in order to try and keep the comparison to not automatically favor Fighters.)
* Lords are the best choice for dual-wielding, making them the best choice for the Diamond Eyes (but there's only 1 reliably available).
* Valkyries are best with spears, which are the best weapon choice until late, and are still viable then. Also, the game provides as many spears as needed, and therefore can support as many Valkyries as desired. (This isn't the case for some other weapon types.)
* Samurai can use the Zatoichi Bo (note that there's only 1 reliably available), and are actually the best Giant Sword users at high levels because of the bonus to Swords. (Note that stats make them not necessarily the best earlier; Fighters and Rangers get better starting stats. Also, watch out for unexpected Lightning Strikes, which will result in a lot of lost Stamina when they occur.)
* Monks also get that Zatoichi Bo, and also are decent without a weapon (and the game, of course, provides all the "unarmed"s that you will ever need).
* Ninja are not that great. The lack of the primary skill bonus makes unarmed attacks not that good, and critical hits are too unreliable (and can be obtained through weapon choice by other classes, anyway). The only exception is if you get a specific weapon that requires killing a friendly NPC, isn't a guaranteed drop (though, unlike most such items, it usually does drop), and is only usable by a specific race that most players not knowing about the weapon will not choose.


Experts: This is easy.
* Rogue is best because of backstab (but keep in mind that they don't get stamina casting, and therefore can't fill the same roles as the other experts).
* Bard comes next, thanks to some nice Bard specific equipment.
* Then Gadgeteer is slightly behind Bard.
Post edited July 03, 2024 by dtgreene
Spellcasters:
* Priest is best here. More HP than the other casters (and HP for casters is low enough for this to be a significant concern, unlike with warriors and experts), can use maces and flails, and don't have as many "wasted" points as the others. (No INT requirement. Unfortunately, Piety and (to some degree) Vitality are wasted here.) The only readily available mace that matters and only has 1 reliably available is the Diamond Eyes; The Mauler is stronger and can be bought. Also worth noting that you get your weapon skill as a class skill, which helps in the beginning, and you can even start with a mace.
* Bishops come second, due to being also able to equip maces. Catch is slower leveling, only 80% the HP (which, remember, is a real concern here), and more wasted stats. (INT and PIE are wasted here, while SEN is somewhat wasted; DEX, on the other hand, is not wasted at all.)
* Alchemist comes next; the biggest problem is being stuck with wands and staves. Staves do not allow shield use (and there's only 1 reliably available Staff of Doom), while Wands are all weak. You do get more HP than with a Bishop, however.
* Psionics have low HP (dangerously low, in fact; low HP will result in deaths), poor weapon selection (stuck with staves, no shields, weak armor selection), and really aren't suited for melee at all. At least you don't need to worry about your Psionic going insane.
* Mage: Take Psionic, reduce HP even further, increase the useless INT requirement, and relplace mental immunity with a small resistance bonus. (And a different spellbook, but that's not the topic of this thread.) Easily the worst choice here. Don't ever put a Mage in your party unless you're planning on actually using magic with that character.


Also, I forgot to mention Rangers earlier (under Warrior). They lack any melee class skill bonus, so worse than Fighter/Lord/Valkyrie, but have decent stats for Giant Sword use, and still have decent enough equipment selection (including Diamond Eyes). The game can support up to 4 Giant Sword users, though the 1st one comes well before the others (for a typical player), and the 4th one doesn't come until just before what is usually the final artifact.
Post edited July 03, 2024 by dtgreene
Dmg of MA attacks scales with STR and MA skill on top of each other,
since monks focus on MA skill only they can reach a max of 341-810 avg MA dmg.
Similar the attack rating is affected by MA skill and CC skill
Stamina consumption of MA attacks is equal to a 3.0 lbs weapon in each "hand".
MA attacks carry the knockout together with the instakill effect
Ini is affected by MA skill.

In pvp monks would have a good chance to KO or kill the fighter 1st, also to stay unnoticed due to stealth
Post edited July 03, 2024 by townltu
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townltu: In pvp monks would have a good chance to KO or kill the fighter 1st, also to stay unnoticed due to stealth
The game isn't designed for PvP. For example, you mention the Stealth skill, but it's not clear how that would work. There are some enemies that can be hidden, but they're always (in my experience) spotted before reaching melee range, and the game doesn't prevent you from targeting them. Also, how would the Scouting skill affect this?

If PvP were a thing, Samurai might actually be a decent choice due to having access to Missile Shield while still being a good fighter.

Edit: Although, of course, Missile Shield doesn't help against an opponent who keeps using Instant Death, which can kill instantly and which Element Shield can't block, either.
Post edited July 04, 2024 by dtgreene
So why would an expert player not want to take advantage of these facts? You get the best of both worlds with a Fighter and Rogue up front dual-wielding, (creating maximum damage to the enemies), and with a Valkyrie and Ranger on the flanks as support (wielding Polearms from extended range), there is no end to level up possibilities.
Edit: Your 2 Bishops can get Staves of Doom as well), as anybody can use this weapon, allowing anybody, particularly weaker casters, to attack from extended range.
Double Edit: I have thought about the Monk, but they have Stealth, which doesn't allow them to hold a flank.
Post edited July 05, 2024 by RChu1982
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RChu1982: So why would an expert player not want to take advantage of these facts? You get the best of both worlds with a Fighter and Rogue up front dual-wielding, (creating maximum damage to the enemies), and with a Valkyrie and Ranger on the flanks as support (wielding Polearms from extended range), there is no end to level up possibilities.
Edit: Your 2 Bishops can get Staves of Doom as well), as anybody can use this weapon, allowing anybody, particularly weaker casters, to attack from extended range.
Double Edit: I have thought about the Monk, but they have Stealth, which doesn't allow them to hold a flank.
Fighter's Berserk is sometimes not the best option, as it does have some drawbacks, which become particularly apparent when fighting low HP enemies:
* Berserk has an accuracy penalty. This means that you might have an enemy that would die in a single hit without berserk, but because you went berserk, your attack misses and the enemy gets an attack in that it wouldn't have otherwise. (And this attack could result in death or worse, depending on the enemy and how evil the RNG is feeling.)
* Berseri does not get your weapon's initiative modifier. This meas that, if you have a fast weapon, this might make the difference between acting before an enemy and acting after it. (Note, however, that if the weapon is slow, berserk might actually make the attack *faster* than it would be otherwise.)

One problem with the Staff of Doom is that it's two-handed, meaning it can't be used with a shield. In this case, particularly with bishops having the 3rd lowest HP, it might be better to give the bishop a 1 handed weapon, like the Cat o' Nine Tails (extended range, good at low Strength), or the Diamond Eyes (short range, nice paralyze chance, has better to-hit and initiative than The Mauler, but it wants more Strength).

By the way, I have been doing some Bishop theorycrafting, and it's occurred to me that you can have a fast caster bishop who can become decent (not great) in melee at high levels.
* Build I'm looking at raises INT, SPD, STR, and DEX in that order.
* SPD provides 2 extra points of AC. Add in another 2-4 from the shield (and shield skill), 5 from the Cape of Stealth, and 6 from two Amulets of Healing, and your AC should be good enough. (Note to mention that Stealth from the cape means this character is less likely to be targeted.)
* Not raising Senses hurts initiative, but how much do you really need when you have Snake Speed? (A SEN variant could work if you're looking for ranged combat, except that Eagle Eye may come too late.)
* STR would max out at level 29 with these priorities. This is late (I consider 24 to be when the game is expected to end), but STR has significant benefits even without the expert skill.
* Specifically, you have 51 STR at levels 1 and 12. At level 15, 60 STR makes The Mauler hex-safe when used with an Ankh of Might; it takes level 19 to be hex-safe without the Ankh.

(Could try going INT/DEX first. Better accuracy, and eventually better AC, but character is no longer fast, and you don't get any of that AC until after you get Reflextion.)

By the way, I've introduced a new term that I came up with: "hex-safe". What this means is that the build can still function while hexed. A build that isn't hex-safe may have issues like the following:
* Items are forcibly unequipped. This means that, not only do you lose the benefit of the weapon (you might have no Mauler or Strong Bow equipped, for example), but you also have to spend a turn, after you recover from hexed, to re-equip it.
* Bards and Gadgeteers may lose the use of some of their instruments/gadgets. A Bard with maxed Music and Puck's Cap can avoid this, making the whole build hex-safe, but a Gadgeteer doesn't have that option (and will therefore want some non-level-7 gadget to use while hexed; something like the Regenerating Stone or Holographic Projector could work).
Best melee:

Alchemist/Psionic/Mage: Staff of Doom (won't put them in melee range, as their short range attacks suck).

Priest/Bishop: Staff of Doom if you don't want to get into short range (my Bishops aren't built for that).

Bard/Gadgeteer: I built a party on them, being the "tough girls". They don't have the melee capacity of others.

Rogue: Has the potential to get 1X-4X the melee damage, while suffering as a tier 2 character.

Fighter: Guaranteed 2X damage from Berserk, if it hits. KO chance.
Sorry, replying more sober: Alchemist/Psionic/Mage would be best with the Staff of Doom, as they wouldn't be good with close range Daggers, Wands, or Short Staves.

Priests and Bishops, who aren't build for short range combat, (which is most), fall into my camp. Both Bishops will max Strength, Intelligence, Speed, and Senses by level 31, unlocking Powerstrike, Powercast, SnakeSpeed, and Eagle Eye.

Bards, Gadgeteers, and Rangers are only mediocre at melee combat, which is why I suggest that they don't dual-wield.

Fighters and Rogues are devastating to the enemy; They should always dual-wield, to take maximum advantage of their abilities.

Classes like the Lord, Valkyrie, and Ranger, should focus on what makes them best. This is why I prioritize their magic.
Post edited July 07, 2024 by RChu1982
Some melee theory crafting (Playing on Novice difficulty) The Overseer:

With great power comes great responsibility (so no party deaths, also, no Friendlies are allowed to die in an encounter).

Fighter: *Light Sword* and Diamond Eyes (LS is easily farmable, while DE is best in the hands of a Fighter).

Rogue: *Light Sword* and Stiletto. The Stiletto isn't cursed (like Bloodlust and Thieves' Dagger), while still has a crit %.

Bard/Gadgeteer: *Light Sword* and *Light Shield*. The "jack of all trade" characters. Only mediocre at melee combat, and no Mace and Flail skill (no Diamond Eyes). Their off-hand weapon choices are weak, Stiletto being their best bet, but it's still not worth it, as they aren't Backstabbing like the Rogue.

Lord: I've never used this character, as they seem like too much work. Not enough damage output (gets Dual Weapons skill, yet does far less damage than a Fighter or Rogue dual-wielding). Also, once said Fighter or Rogue maxes their Dual Weapons skill, what separates their 100 skill from the Lord's 125 Dual Weapons skill? If they all get 3 swings per attack, and 3 attacks per round, the Lord is all wet. I know that they get an HP + bonus, but that can be overcome with gear.

Valkyrie: This is the first time that I've created one, and I assume that she is best with Polearms (she gets a profession bonus to this skill). She can cheat death, but this is a moot point, as I'm going for no deaths. Also, extended range melee attacks. She should get the best Polearm available.

Ranger: Mooks can use the Giant's Sword (4 guaranteed drops). Non-Mooks should probably use Polearms, for extended range. They are only mediocre at melee combat, like the Bard and Gadgeteer. so shouldn't dual-wield (they're not frontline characters, making it not worth it, while not having the damage to back it up).

Alchemist/Psionic/Mage: These characters only have access to Dagger and Staff and Wand weapon skills. Daggers, wands, and short staves put them in short range combat, which they probably are not built for. Go with Staff of Doom for extended reach, keeping them out of harm's way (you do know how to farm Rapax Corpses for extra SODs, right)?

Priest/Bishop: There are 3 choices here.
1. Mauler/Diamond Eyes with a shield (preferably, a *Light Shield* that you can farm from Jan-Ette, or the Buccaneer Ghosts). This puts them in short range combat, which most casters aren't built for.
2. Cat O' Nine Tails/Vampire Chain with a shield (having trained with a Bullwhip, again, LS being the best choice). This keeps them out of short range combat, while allowing them to hit from extended range. Note that whips are one-handed, only getting half of the Strength damage bonus (same as ranged weapons). This was probably done for balance reasons, and is probably best for Priests and Bishops that don't prioritize Strength.
3. Staff of Doom. The best damage that a caster can inflict upon an enemy, while offering Paralyze 25%, Hex 10%, Kill 15%. Extended range, keeping them out of the fryer. Best for casters who max Strength, as it gets the full Strength damage bonus (this is what I'm going for, max destruction to my enemies). As a two-handed weapon, you get no shield, but who needs a shield, when protected by more powerful party members? Also, Reflextion can be somewhat substituted for, by magic buffs, such as Armorplate, Missile Shield, Bless, Guardian Angel, etc.
Post edited July 10, 2024 by RChu1982
For the record, I think it would be fair for your rule of no deaths that if a Valkyrie dies but is saved by her cheat death ability, then that does not count as a "death," since that is an ability of her profession.
I agree in principle, but check the character pages. The Valkyrie, the way that I am building her (Strength, Dexterity, Speed, Senses maxed at level 31), almost guarantees that she won't die from melee or ranged attacks (magic instant death attacks should be rare, and if this happens, you can always reload.