Hello Fellow Avatars! I am having some trouble with the GOG version of Ultima V. I have been rolling through the Virtue Quests, having completed Justice, Compassion, and Honesty. I went to the Humility shrine on Avatar Isle, was sent to the Codex, did that, went back to the shrine and it gave me the quest again with no completion message or stat bonuses. I did it again and the same thing happened. And then again. Same thing. Am I doing something wrong? I am speaking the correct mantra: LUM.

Have I encountered a bug? Should I be saving this shrine quest for last for some reason?

Lord O Lord It's Hard to be Humble....

The lack of stat bonuses is not a bug, and is how it is supposed to work with that virtue.

The way it works out is that, if you have played enough of the middle Ultima games (especially Ultima 4), you might know that each virtue is associated with some subset of the 3 principles. It turns out that each of the principles is associated with one of the stats, and that comes up a few times, character creation being one of them.

In Ultima 5, each shrine quest boosts stats based off the underlying principles. For example, Justice gives you bonuses to Dexterity and Intelligence, because those are the stats corresponding to the associated principles.

Humility is associated with no principles; hence doing the shrine quests gives you no stat bonuses at all.

This association of principles with stats has a couple other implications in the middle games of the series:
* At the start of the game (applies to 4 through 6), unless you deliberately want to make the game harder, avoid choosing the humble answers, as you will start with lower stats (and in Ultima 4, choosing it every time it's offered will start you off as a humble Shepherd, which is the worst class in the game).
* In Ultima 6, your level-up stat gains depend on which shrine grants you the level up; hence, avoid leveling up at the shrine of Humility as it will not give you any stat gains for that level.

In Ultima 5, the real reason to save the Humility quest for last is that it doesn't give you any stat bonuses, whereas the others do. (Actually, the only reason to do that shrine quests is to get the clue you get as a reward; if it's not your first playthrough, there's no reason to do this.) That's definitely true in this series. Just try choosing the Humble answers to Ultima 4's starting questionnaire; you start as a level 1 humble Shepherd in a remote area with only a town in ruins and a moongate (that you need to wait for).

… But, conversely, you can collect all the NPCs for your party. :)

Yes, but combat gets more annoying the more characters are in your party.

(Also, in the NES version, you have to go through the final dungeon with just the main character, and having a Sling as your only ranged weapon doesn't sound very fun. (At least you have MP at that point in the game.))

By the way, in the NES version of Ultima 4, trying to get the Robe (NES-exclusive Shepherd-only armor that's as strong as the +1 Cloth) when your inventory is full will cause the game to spout nonsense.

Ah, the dreaded stack overflow.

I never completed it with a shepherd. I think I did both a mage and a paladin, but that was over 30 years ago.

For computer and SMS versions, I like soloing as a mage; the Sling works well enough with good stats for me to loot Hythloth to get money for the Magic Wand, at which point the rest of the game is easy combat wise. (In the SMS version at least, 40 DEX guarantees that your attacks hit, so I like to reach that point. It's possible this may be a bug since misses aren't that rare at 39 DEX.) (I note that the damage formula for player phyiscal attacks is based of STR + weapon attack, so high STR can compensate for the low attack power of slings.)

For the NES version, Mage is actually a bit of a challenge before you get the Wand; in particular, I find myself having to use magic to win battles in a reasonable amount of time (which makes sense if I'm playing a mage). I note that the damage formula for ranged attacks on NES is based off somethin like (weapon attack * (1 + INT / 100)). (Before you ask "why INT", it's because, when the NES version was translated from Japanese into English, they switched the DEX and INT stat names; there's other things that were lost in translation, like a certain mage who mentions the Tremor spell in the Japanese version but not the English version (but you still need to talk to them before you can write Tremor into your spellbook).) Paladin, on the other hand, is much easier, and with max stats that +1 Axe is almost as good as the Wand (every problem enemy ether can be one hit killed by the +1 Axe or takes two hits with the Wand).

Yes, but I didn't do any solo playthrough! Though, by the end of the game, it's almost easier to solo. (Not really, but, how many times have you moved a character thinking it was an attack by a different character? My word but that is annoying.)

I'm struggling to think of a synonym of dexterity that might be construed as the three-letter acronym INT. agilINTy? :D

I seem to recall it was difficult playing a mage (until the wand) which is why you make a bee-line for the Paladin town (whatever it's called).

As I said, the stat labels were switched: The stat that determines how much MP you get (and, in the NES version, has a small effect on spell damage) is called DEX. As you can see, the English NES version suffered from double translation, and the translation back into English isn't that great.

Another interesting fact is that some NPCs were removed when the game was translated from Japanese to English; there are NPCs in the Japanese version (like a guard in Yew that you have to walk around to reach the jail) that were removed in the English version. With that said, even the Japanese Famicom version has fewer NPCs than the original release, and the complex (for the time) conversation system found in other versions is missing here.

At least there *were* a few additions; three spells, some new equipment, and being able to equip both a melee weapon and a bow at the same time is nice. I also like the fact that combat in the NES version is far less random. On the other hand, I could do without the simplification of the dungeons; hallway traps are missing, rooms are simpler, and many rooms have been replaced with duplicates of other romms. (Destard is particularly bad about this; there are two rooms that are identical in the NES version, and to fully explore the dungeon you have to go through one room 3 times and the other 2, and there are no other rooms in between to mix things up; also the enemies there cast Reflect (makes caster immune to ranged attacks for a few turns) which makes things even more annoying.) It gets even worse if you have the Quickness spell active, since the number of extra turns you get is random. (In the NES version, that spell now consistently gives each character one extra turn per round, but you don't get to choose what the character does that round.)

That sounds … horrible. :) So, you buff your mage and she runs for three rounds to attack with her rusty dagger instead of casting the super-awesome insta-death "polymorph pasta"?

Bow and mêlée weapons would at least reduce some of the annoying kit-swapping that bedevils the Ultima series.

In my experience, after casting Quick in the NES version:
* A character who moves will again move in the same direction.
* A character who attacks will again attack.
* The character who just cast the spell might move, attack, or cast Missile (wasting your reagents)

It's still better than the Auto command. This command, which the cursor is on by default, will randomly cause the character to move, attack, or cast Missile. (Exceptions: A move will be repeated, and a character who just attacked will make a melee attack if possible.) Personally, I wish they had either not included this command, or make this command equivalent to "attack nearest enemy", since that is what I do most of the time.

With respect to bow + melee weapon:
* You can't switch weapons during combat. (That might be why they added the dual weapon system.)
* The +1 Axe (Magic Axe on PC) and Wand are equipped in the melee weapon slot, but can be used at range if you do not have a bow equipped (and are stronger than any bow); however, there is a trade-off in that equipping one may lead to less melee damage than the alternative (well, maybe not for a non-Avatar Mage/Druid; note that the Bard can't use the Wand on NES). Note that, when used at range, they actually behave like ranged weapons (so they can miss or be blocked by Reflect); in melee range, they behave like melee weapons.
* Melee weapons have received a noticeable boost relative to ranged weapons. In particular, the +1 Sword (replaces Halberd) is as strong as the Wand and stronger than the +1 Axe; the +2 Sword is even stronger.
* I could also mention the +2 Axe, which is a NES exclusive weapon that you can't buy; it's an even stronger melee weapon (though not as strong as the mystic sword), but is only usable by the Fighter. (Fighters are still the second worse class, since they still can't use any ranged weapons stronger than the X-Bow, but at least that weapon works in the Abyss, so if you get that far with a Fighter avatar, the Abyss is still manageable.)

IIRC it is perfectly acceptable to change weapons during combat on the PC version, it just takes a turn to do so, thus effectively missing a turn.

I find that I never do that, unless I want to use the Halberd for whatever reason; I would rather just use the turn to do a bit of extra damage, which also saves having to switch back to a ranged weapon later.

In general, ranged weapons really give too much of an advantage over melee in Ultima 3-5; when battles start with the party a ways away from the enemies and you can only move one square per turn (and only if you do nothing else), it just doesn't make sense to go melee unless forced to (like in U3's final area).

Also, once I get the Magic Wand, there isn't a point to go melee; in computer versions, the Wand has power 160 (210 with maxed STR), while the Mystic Sword, the only melee weapon that's stronger, only has 255 (which is the cap; STR won't help here).

The NES version did try to make melee combat more useful:
* Melee weapons are now stronger than ranged weapons; the +2 Sword is now stronger than the Wand, for example.
* As I mentioned, you can equip both a melee weapon and a bow, so switching to melee doesn't use a turn. (This also means there's an interesting trade-off for the Magic Axe/Wand; if you have a stronger melee weapon available, using one of these weapons effectively means sacrificing some melee damage for ranged.)
* The player's melee attacks always hit, but ranged attacks can miss. (Unlike in other versions, however, misses aren't *that* common, and miss streaks are impossible due to the way the game handles accuracy (which, interestingly, does not use the RNG).)
* Sometimes, a random overworld battle will start with each party member near enemies, making it much more likely for melee combat to occur. (This is one reason that everyone should have *some* melee weapon, even if it's just a club; being in melee with only a bow doesn't work so well (you can't use bows in melee on NES).)
* The Reflect spell exists, and is used by some enemies (Mages, Demons, Balrons I believe).

On the other hand, on the NES version, ranged attacks can hit anywhere, including through walls; unfortunately this does reduce the strategy as walls can no longer be used for cover. (In the SMS system, which is more faithful to the original, you can target any enemy with your attacks, but you can't fire through walls or other enemies; interestingly enough, Slings (but not other ranged weapons) have limited range in that version.)

By the way, in all (to my knowledge) versions, Magic Axe > Magic Bow even though the axe is cheaper.

This was a stroke of brilliance in game design. The symmetry is quite beautiful. I see my attempt at jocularity fell flat. ;( DEX could be Dynamic Energy eXpenditure potential! :)
Ja, that can be explained by the attitude of the party (which way they are facing, indicated by the direction of movement on the terrain), and if, for example, they are flanked by an enemy group. In that case (and notably in dungeons where orientation is more noticeable) the monsters will appear in combat on the side whence they approached the party. So if your less-able fighters are at the back, and the party is surprised from behind, those members will need to move quickly out of the way to use their ranged weaponry whilst the front-line tanks move in to mêlée!

One problem: These "ambush" battles don't actually occur in dungeons. In a dungeon, every random battle starts with the party on the bottom and the enemies on the top.

On the other hand, this issue *does* affect overworld battles, and has the interesting effect of making melee attacks more relevant. (As I mentioned before, on the NES, slings and bows can't be used in melee; a character with only a sling or bow equipped and no melee weapon will make a weak unarmed attack. This issue is most likely to affect Druids, who can use all bows but the only melee weapon stronger than the Club they can use is the Wand, which is *really* expensive (and money is harder to get in the NES version).)

It's rather interesting to see how different the NES version's battle mechanics are from those of other versions of the game. I think I prefer the NES's battle mechanics, though I wish it had the speed of the other versions, and when playing the NES version, I miss the unsimplified dungeon rooms and puzzles of theother versions.

It's also neat that the developer even thought to include the combination of no principles, which of course is Humility, and even made it a nice challenge option. (I would recommend for new players to avoid that choice during character creation, and for experienced players to know what they're getting into, if they choose that route. I don't want to even *think* of what it would be like bringing the Shepherd through the NES version's Abyss; with only a Sling for a ranged weapon, it would get rather tedious.)

But, the whole dungeon plays like a continuous combat; entering a new "room" will have enemies potentially surrounding the party. And some that may only be hit with ranged weapons (with lava or water separating them from the party's path.)