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Ultima seriesUltima 7 / 8 /9 gameplay length(36 posts)(36 posts)
(36 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted April 12, 2021
I started playing U8 recently and went in with the intention of doing my best to keep an open mind. I played for about 6 hours. I thought the graphics were noticeable step up from U7, though not nearly as big a jump from U6 to U7.

I immediately found the UI to be clunky and wondered if that would change if I gave it some time to get used to it.

I spent quite a few hours wandering around the city (Tenebrae) and it seemed strange. It seemed hard to find people to talk to, I couldn't tell day from night (no light/dark cycle I could see), which may have been why it was hard to find people to talk to. Time of day notwithstanding I didn't really see any shops.

I did manage to find the Librarian who said to talk to Mythran, and gave directions which involved leaving the city and going through a cave. Before wandering too far I wanted to get some weapons and armor, fight some weak stuff and try to get a feel for the game's combat, treasure, exploration loop.

Eventually I gave up on finding said loop, suspecting that it may just not really exist in any way I'm familiar with, and instead just charged out the northern gate of the city with a dagger in my hand and no armor and hoped for the best. That didn't seem to matter much because when I had my first battles with ghouls in the cave I was able to win. Given Ultima's reputation for a combat system that went down hill starting with Black Gate, I wasn't expecting much from the combat system in U8 so I got more of a chuckle from this than was bothered by it.

Then in the cave, I hit my frustration limit with the UI. There was a jumping thing with stones in a lake that I had to watch a Let's Play to figure out how to do, then there was the cliff climbing. I got really tired of standing next to the cliff and pressing both buttons only to jump straight in the air instead of climbing.

Further in the cave was a lever puzzle and several dead avatars from me falling off the bridge or the ledge. This compounded with the difficulty I seem to have navigating through doorways and finding a door on the west or north side of a wall.

At this point it was clear that I wasn't having fun. The other issues (like finding stuff) seemed resolvable, but I figured after 10 hours if I didn't feel like I was getting the hang of the UI, that's a bad sign that for me at least, the game was going to feel more frustrating than fun throughout.

From a historical perspective, I'm glad I played it some though. I can see how real-time combat started with U7 Black Gate, and in U8 they were for the first time (in an Ultima at least) giving the player some direct control of their character in combat with moves like strike, block and kick. I think I can see why the devs may have thought bringing jumping and climbing into the mix seemed like it fit.
Post edited April 12, 2021 by 6502_Workshop
Posted April 12, 2021
Welcome to Ultima 8! :P

Yeah, it's quite something. I really love the setting, the feeling of the Avatar truly being alone here, far away from home and friends. But it's obvious the game wasn't done. The state it's in, I figure they needed a few more years.

- The jumping that has been already mentioned many times.
- The graphics, which you say are improved, and technically they have I guess, but seeing the 100th gray cave or yet the same catacombs again... it's far from Ultima 7's vibrant world.
- The combat that is utterly unfinished... hacking away on even the lowest difficult enemies takes ages. Not that you have to, since you can just outrun everything. You don't have to fight a single enemy in the game.
- The stats system, starting out with 15 in your 3 stats, being able to raise it to 25. What kind of numbers are these.
- The magic system that is such a pain in the arse, with the exception of thaumaturgy. Preparing fire spells is especially vile.
- So many useless items. Exploding discs, exploding gems, exploding bottles, gained from ever exploding chests. Exploding books! (Thanks, suchiuomizu) Exploding mushrooms! Everywhere. It's like Michael Bay directed it.

Still though, I've played through it many times, because of the setting. The music is absolutely brilliant, and there are really awesome moments in the game which I won't spoil.

Maybe, if you'd like to give it another try, just use a guide to get through the game. You won't need to spent weeks looking for where to go. You don't even need to spend time on increasing your stats, due to being able to run away from everything. So that dagger you find at the start really is all you need.
Post edited April 13, 2021 by Gotcha
Posted April 13, 2021
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Gotcha: - So many useless items. Exploding discs, exploding gems, exploding bottles, gained from ever exploding chests. Exploding mushrooms! Everywhere. It's like Michael Bay directed it.
Don't forget the exploding books (I did, until my short replay yesterday).
Post edited April 13, 2021 by suchiuomizu
Posted April 13, 2021
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Gotcha: Welcome to Ultima 8! :P

Yeah, it's quite something. I really love the setting, the feeling of the Avatar truly being alone here, far away from home and friends. But it's obvious the game wasn't done. The state it's in, I figure they needed a few more years.

- The jumping that has been already mentioned many times.
- The graphics, which you say are improved, and technically they have I guess, but seeing the 100th gray cave or yet the same catacombs again... it's far from Ultima 7's vibrant world.
- The combat that is utterly unfinished... hacking away on even the lowest difficult enemies takes ages. Not that you have to, since you can just outrun everything. You don't have to fight a single enemy in the game.
- The stats system, starting out with 15 in your 3 stats, being able to raise it to 25. What kind of numbers are these.
- The magic system that is such a pain in the arse, with the exception of thaumaturgy. Preparing fire spells is especially vile.
- So many useless items. Exploding discs, exploding gems, exploding bottles, gained from ever exploding chests. Exploding mushrooms! Everywhere. It's like Michael Bay directed it.

Still though, I've played through it many times, because of the setting. The music is absolutely brilliant, and there are really awesome moments in the game which I won't spoil.

Maybe, if you'd like to give it another try, just use a guide to get through the game. You won't need to spent weeks looking for where to go. You don't even need to spend time on increasing your stats, due to being able to run away from everything. So that dagger you find at the start really is all you need.
Yeah, I had a feeling I was just scratching the surface of the frustration :-)

I liked the setting as well, in concept. Like you said, the Avatar all alone and on another world other than Britannia has a certain appeal.

I'm not sure if I'll ever go back to it, but who knows.

In the meantime, I am enjoying Ultima 9 so far. I just left Lord British's castle for the first time and am exploring Britain. The UI is soooo much better than U8. And finally backpacks and bags have grid slots ending the chaos since Black Gate.

I've only had a few battles, but the ones I've had weren't off putting, but too early to have a full sense of it.

My understanding is the issues with U9 are largely bugs and plot problems, some of which have been solved by patches. I'm patched to 1.1.9H and hoping for the best but won't be surprised if I get stuck due to some of these issues.

I'd say my biggest beef so far is lighting. When I left the castle it was fricken dark, I don't have the light spell, light scrolls wear off fast, there is no fast way to pass time I can find, and the supply merchant hangs out in the town square day and night listening to the wind bag mayor instead of working in his shop selling me torches.
Post edited April 13, 2021 by 6502_Workshop
Posted April 13, 2021
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6502_Workshop: My understanding is the issues with U9 are largely bugs and plot problems, some of which have been solved by patches. I'm patched to 1.1.9H and hoping for the best but won't be surprised if I get stuck due to some of these issues.
The sheer stupidity of some of the questions the Avatar can ask, that almost make him look like an imposter, certainly don't help ("The Codex of Ultimate Wisdom?", "What, I mean who are the Gargoyles?", and everyone's favorite "What's a paladin?"). There is also a point you can potentially trick a troll asking for 10 gold pieces, asking how much that is. Some of the other potential questions would make you think that he was seriously asking.

Ultima 8 I can occasionally replay for the sake of the setting a few of its best moments. Ultima 9 is something I don't think I can play again (On top of other problems, I am partially holding a grudge due to the fact that the one time I got close to the end, my computer crashed and never recovered. I can't rule out that game itself was responsible in one way or another).
Posted April 13, 2021
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suchiuomizu: The sheer stupidity of some of the questions the Avatar can ask, that almost make him look like an imposter, certainly don't help ("The Codex of Ultimate Wisdom?", "What, I mean who are the Gargoyles?", and everyone's favorite "What's a paladin?"). There is also a point you can potentially trick a troll asking for 10 gold pieces, asking how much that is. Some of the other potential questions would make you think that he was seriously asking.
Ah, that's right! I was wondering when "What's a Paladin?" was going to come up. So far I haven't seen it - do you recall if it was in the early part of the game?


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suchiuomizu: Ultima 8 I can occasionally replay for the sake of the setting a few of its best moments. Ultima 9 is something I don't think I can play again (On top of other problems, I am partially holding a grudge due to the fact that the one time I got close to the end, my computer crashed and never recovered. I can't rule out that game itself was responsible in one way or another).
Ouch!
Post edited April 13, 2021 by 6502_Workshop
Posted May 16, 2021
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Gotcha: - The magic system that is such a pain in the arse, with the exception of thaumaturgy. Preparing fire spells is especially vile.
I will say that the magic systems are amongst the things that I actually like about Ultima VIII. I like that each functions differently, that Sorcery in particular has its ritual aspect, and so on. Rather more engaging, to me at least, than the point-and-click approach to magic.

But indeed, thaumaturgy is indeed by far the best! (A point on which I am in no way biased. ;P)

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suchiuomizu: The sheer stupidity of some of the questions the Avatar can ask, ...
In all fairness, even Ultima VII has some degree of what I'm guessing is new-player onboarding: You can ask your companions of many adventures their names!

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suchiuomizu: Ultima 8 I can occasionally replay for the sake of the setting a few of its best moments. Ultima 9 is something I don't think I can play again ...
Having relatively-recently tried to go back to both, I find it the other way around for myself: Ultima IX I may actually appreciate more these days, finding it to be one of the best implementations of an "open world" that I've thus far seen. Conversely, the greyness, instant-death traps, and limited view-distance make Ultima VIII less appealing, and I quickly lost interest in my playthrough there, as I recall.

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suchiuomizu: ... (On top of other problems, I am partially holding a grudge due to the fact that the one time I got close to the end, my computer crashed and never recovered. I can't rule out that game itself was responsible in one way or another).
Oh wow, ouch! That can indeed be off-putting, I do think! o_o
Posted May 16, 2021
I love the process of joining the different magic communities and their rituals. But I agree it gets old having to repeat them and the way you have items for every spell makes it very cumbersome. I would prefer it if you had a spellbook like in the previous games, and then could do the various rituals to recharge a number of casts for the relevant spell.
Posted May 16, 2021
I do think that the systems could have been improved, and I don't think that I'd want all magic-inclusive games to use such mechanics, but I nevertheless think that I like having something like UVIII's spell-systems in place.

I think that, for me, the way that I might improve what they have would be twofold:

First, I might give the resultant "spell-objects" more charges. Especially for Necromancy, which really was cumbersome and tedious in its single-use, reagent-consuming spells.

And second, I might provide a more-convenient means of accessing those items--even if nothing more than a quick-slot system.
Post edited May 16, 2021 by Thaumaturge
Posted May 16, 2021
I like the idea of different types of magic using different mecahincs. In fact, I *love* it when different character races or classes have entirely different character growth mechanics (see SaGa 1/2/Frontier for examples of this).

What I *don't* like, however, is having to consume items, particularly items you have to go out of your way to get (reagents typically can't be found in Ultima games, only purchased), to cast even the most basic spells. That is actually my biggest complaint about Ultima 4, and it applies to later Ultima games as well.

So, I think it would work best if you didn't need to worry about consumables for most spells, and the number of different types needed for them would be small. For example, it would definitely help if the only reagent were Mandrake Root, and only spells that currently require it would still require it; every other spell would have no reagent cost, costing only MP. (The Might and Magic series does something like this with gems, though even spells of moderate power require them, but at least they're plentiful and you don't have to go out of your way to get them.)

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Thaumaturge: First, I might give the resultant "spell-objects" more charges. Especially for Necromancy, which really was cumbersome and tedious in its single-use, reagent-consuming spells.
I'd go with infinite charges for all but the most powerful spells, with MP being the limiting factor here. Or, alternatively, there might be some type of magic that doesn't use MP, but uses items with finite charges, but the spells need to be strong enough to warrant it (something like Final Fantasy 5's Chemist Mixes in terms of power).
Post edited May 16, 2021 by dtgreene
Posted May 16, 2021
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dtgreene: What I *don't* like, however, is having to consume items, particularly items you have to go out of your way to get (reagents typically can't be found in Ultima games, only purchased), to cast even the most basic spells.
This I do agree on. While I think that reagents are nicely redolent of magic-use, I think that I would rather they were used sparingly. Maybe they might be used for some initial ritual--initiation into a given magical order, or the opening of a given spell-circle, perhaps--but that the actual spell-casting rituals more often than not involved no consumables.

(For what it's worth, I do recall that reagents can be found in the world in at least Ultima VIII and Ultima IX.)

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dtgreene: I'd go with infinite charges for all but the most powerful spells, with MP being the limiting factor here. Or, alternatively, there might be some type of magic that doesn't use MP, but uses items with finite charges, but the spells need to be strong enough to warrant it (something like Final Fantasy 5's Chemist Mixes in terms of power).
For myself, I think that I would prefer to have limited charges simply because it would encourage spending more time with the rituals of spell-casting. I want magic to feel a bit less point-and-click and a bit more, well, magical.

For reference, I'm one of those people who actually liked the magic system in Arx Fatalis. (Although I do think that it had some definite issues, too.)
Posted May 16, 2021
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dtgreene: What I *don't* like, however, is having to consume items, particularly items you have to go out of your way to get (reagents typically can't be found in Ultima games, only purchased), to cast even the most basic spells.
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Thaumaturge: This I do agree on. While I think that reagents are nicely redolent of magic-use, I think that I would rather they were used sparingly. Maybe they might be used for some initial ritual--initiation into a given magical order, or the opening of a given spell-circle, perhaps--but that the actual spell-casting rituals more often than not involved no consumables.

(For what it's worth, I do recall that reagents can be found in the world in at least Ultima VIII and Ultima IX.)

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dtgreene: I'd go with infinite charges for all but the most powerful spells, with MP being the limiting factor here. Or, alternatively, there might be some type of magic that doesn't use MP, but uses items with finite charges, but the spells need to be strong enough to warrant it (something like Final Fantasy 5's Chemist Mixes in terms of power).
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Thaumaturge: For myself, I think that I would prefer to have limited charges simply because it would encourage spending more time with the rituals of spell-casting. I want magic to feel a bit less point-and-click and a bit more, well, magical.

For reference, I'm one of those people who actually liked the magic system in Arx Fatalis. (Although I do think that it had some definite issues, too.)
I'm thinking that having some diversity in the way spells are learned would be interesting. For example, having characters learn spells randomly (like Esper skills in SaGa 1/2), or by using other spells, would be rather interesting. (When I played The Alliance Alive, I was disappointed in that you had to buy spells instead of awakening them the way you awaken physical techniques.)

Looking up Arx Fatalis's magic system, I don't like the way you have to draw runes, but I like being able to combine them, like in Dungeon Master, or for a more complex example, Rudra no Hihou. (In Rudra no Hihou, spells are called mantras, you create them by entering a sequence of characters (katakana IIRC), and every combination of characters would correspond to a spell. Even better, certain spells from other JRPGs would be recognized by the game and give you similar effects (like Reraise and Megazaru. This would then lead to the interesting mechanic where the only thing preventing lower level or non-mage characters from using powerful spells is their MP.)

Another interesting spell mechanic I've seen is Final Fantasy 5's Blue Magic, where you need to be affected by a spell in order to learn it. Also, Blue Magic spells often had strange mechanics, like one instant death spell that only works if the target's level is a multiple of 5.

Edit: Dungeon Master also had an interesting mechanic when it comes to priest spells. There's no healing spell in the game. Rather, there's a spell that, when cast, will replace the empty flask the character is holding with a healing potion (which turns back into an empty flask if you drink it). There's other spells that can fill flasks as well, or you could instead turn them into water flasks at a fountain (you need to eat and drink in Dungeon Master, and Water Flasks can serve as an alternative to Wineskins).)

Also, particularly with spells, I like it when your character gets better with spells through practice, a mechanic that doesn't appear as often as I like.
Post edited May 16, 2021 by dtgreene
Posted May 17, 2021
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dtgreene: I'm thinking that having some diversity in the way spells are learned would be interesting. ...
I could see that being interesting, indeed.

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dtgreene: Looking up Arx Fatalis's magic system, I don't like the way you have to draw runes, but I like being able to combine them, like in Dungeon Master, or for a more complex example, Rudra no Hihou.
Ironically, my feelings on the matter are pretty much the opposite! Well, not exactly--let me explain:

The thing that I really like about magic in Arx Fatalis is that one has to draw the runes. It's clunky, yes, and inconvenient in battle--a better system would be nice. However, it feels more like doing magic than most systems, and I love that about it.

As to rune combination, I actually like that in concept. I'm not familiar with the examples that you mentioned, but I've seen it elsewhere, I believe--perhaps most saliently in Ultima Underworld.

And it's a neat system!

Save for the fact that--at least in the games that I've played, Arx included--eventually I bump up against a spell that seems like it should work, but that just... doesn't.

That tends to undermine the illusion for me, showing me that what I'm working with is a list in the background: spells that the devs added to the list are available, and spells that they didn't aren't. And there's little to predict what will and won't be on the list.

This then tends to rather dull my interest in exploring the system--because I no longer feel like I'm exploring. I feel like I'm just guessing at what the devs included.

This could, I think, be improved (for me) by (A) adding more feedback--indicating that rune X and rune Y don't like each other and can't be used together, for example--and (B) filling out the list more--even if--perhaps especially if--those spells aren't all useful or beneficial.

(It sounds like one of your examples might do the latter, at least!)

But really I think that I'd be more interested in other means of making spells in games.

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dtgreene: Also, particularly with spells, I like it when your character gets better with spells through practice, a mechanic that doesn't appear as often as I like.
I'll confess that I don't really like this mechanic, myself. It encourages grinding, I feel, and I have a rather strong dislike for grinding.

I don't have a specific mechanic to advance here--just "not that one". ^^;
Posted May 17, 2021
Ultima 7 part 2 felt much shorter than the Black Gate, which was my first introduction to the Ultima series, back on my friend's 486 PC in the mid 1990s. Ultima 8 felt shorter again, and... well I never finished Ultima 9. It was probably on a par with U8 or slightly longer?

Around 1998 I got my first Intel-based PC, finally jumping ship from the Atari ST world, and I'd already purchased Ultima 8 in expectation of getting a PC. I had fun playing it, but was definitely disappointed in some ways, notably with the lack of a party system and the general lack of immersion.
Ultima 7 had a really cool "NPC schedule" system that made the world feel like it existed and kept turning, outside of the player's immediate vicinity. And you could go bake bread, deliver flour, meat, pumpkins etc, and a whole bunch of other things that made it all feel more real.

Although Ultima 8 wasn't in the same league as U7, it was still better than Ascension, which was an incredible disappointment when I played it in the early 2000s. At first I was impressed, until I had my first combat experience of trading 50-100 blows with some kind of bandit until he abruptly keeled over.

The most enjoyable part was following the "Ocean travel without a boat" walkthrough which involved building a tower of bottles, bread and sticks over the unswimmable sea to skip a huge section of the game.
Posted May 17, 2021
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dtgreene: Also, particularly with spells, I like it when your character gets better with spells through practice, a mechanic that doesn't appear as often as I like.
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Thaumaturge: I'll confess that I don't really like this mechanic, myself. It encourages grinding, I feel, and I have a rather strong dislike for grinding.

I don't have a specific mechanic to advance here--just "not that one". ^^;
One reason I like the "spells improve with usage" mechanic is that it encourages the player to actually use their spells, rather than just hoarding them for boss fights or critical situations.

Also, the "grinding" complaint can be solved with some minor tweaks. In particular, casting a spell in a more dangerous setting, or a more difficult spell, should count more than casting it somewhere safe, or against weak enemies. (This is something that Daggerfall/Morrowind/Oblivion get wrong.) Or, one could take a leaf from Secret of Mana and put a cap on spell levels that increases at certain points in the game (which has the added benefit of favoring diversity over overspecialization; note that Secret of Mana is a game where your party is fixed). Case in point: In later versions of Final Fantasy 2 (GBA and later), spells quickly reach a level where they're useful, even spells like Esuna, so it doesn't feel like you need to spend extra time leveling up your spells as long as you use them regularly in combat (and it also helps that Ethers are readily available once you have enough money, and you don't have to worry about inventory space in these versions).
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Ultima seriesUltima 7 / 8 /9 gameplay length(36 posts)(36 posts)
(36 posts)