Not really. More like discussing about some balancing issues with those specializing in Alchemy.

From page 19 of the game manual: "Alchemy -- ...This development path is for gamers who prefer to rack their heads a bit."

Mission accomplished! There are some quirks that are hopefully ironed out, but for the most part the system is well-designed, true to what the manual states, and unlikely to change regardless of eloquent posts like the OP is wont to post :)

I can't agree. http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1907752

I wrote that. Long story short, alchemy sucks hard, and it only sucks more the more you think about it. It should be exactly the opposite.

I think it depends - Catalysis is insane, and a mutagen build basically needs you to go all the way up the alchemy tree. But I think your general argument is pretty good - killing people faster with swords is a little irrelevant when what you really need for tough fights is crowd control. The extra damage does strike me as very good for some sort of hybrid build with whirl, though, since that's basically all you get from the sword tree (other than critical finish and riposte) in terms of new options anyway. But yeah, this is a very good argument why it's a bad idea to main alchemy.

Please don't reduce that whole alchemy thing to a difficulty / balance issue - in my opinion it's a gameplay / design issue more than anything else. Alchemy is a pretty big feature in the game, with loads of different potions and an entire alchemy-tree for character development, but as I told you, for me it comes down to trinking swallow before attempting to win a difficult fight after dying. That's a waste.

If you look at the potion effects, you'll notice that they are even more complex than in the first game - negative effects play a much bigger role now. So what you need to do is to carefully select a combination of potions that either cancel out / limit each others negative effects, or that give you a nice boost in areas that are important for you, while weakening you in areas you don't rely on - or at least that's how I think it's supposed to work. But why should I bother if it's just for one lousy fight anyway?

the whole wraith mist part screws up a lot of folks. first, they can't roll/cast signs/use items like they normally would, so they tend to panic and run around as a ghost.

what they need to do while playing a ghost is just hold E and quick attack when possible.

draug is possibly the easiest boss fight in the game. put 2 points into footwork (a must for any build), then stand fairly close to the draug and wait for his charge. roll out of the way, combo his back. repeat twice and he's done. i did this on my mage build with no sword tree talents except footwork, and providing you've got a decent silver sword, you really can't lose.

Honestly, they could've made some minor effect potions that can be drank during battle (with animations and such, like when you cast a sign so that you don't just chuck everything with a press of a button) and major effect potions that can only be drank with meditation.

I have mentioned this in another post but since we are on a subject...
I do believe that the potion timer should only be active during actual combat...
So, you drink a potion and it remains active until you get into a combat, then the timer starts,
If you are done with the combat and timer is above 0 then the timer stops again and once again resumes when you return to combat.
Finally if you need to get rid of the potion's effects you can simply mediate and they will go away.

I just beat the Draug without much trouble at all as an Alchemist. If you use the oil that damages wraiths and throw down a trap sign, he's cake. I think I killed him with 8 strong attacks (after stunning him 3 times). He didn't even touch me. I didn't even bother with bombs even though my talents give me 100% increase in damage.

Honestly, I think the Alchemist path is way overpowered if you do it correctly. I feel untouchable in combat if I drink potions beforehand due to all the bonuses I get while poisoned. Limitations to potion drinking are, in my opinion, balances to keep the game challenging.

I agree with you , but Alchemy becomes overpowered only once you have your alchemy tree with at least 12 points in it , and your sword tree bonuses stacking with passive bonuses of alchemy , and once you applied your boosted mutagens


And that happens quite late in game , since Prologue+Act1 is more than 50% of the game length ( as chapter 2 is still long , but chapter 3 has only 1 real side quest and is basically a short "corridor" to be honest )

So with alchemy build , you play nearly 75% of the game underpowered compared to a pure swordsman or mix magic-sword build , but it's true that once you more or less completed your alchemy build correctly , roughly around level 27-30 , then your character is almost invincible , mainly thanks to the boosted potions but especially the mutagens if you managed to free 10 slots and have impregnation which doubles their stats which is like having 20 mutagens

What about bombs and traps? you can get double damage for those right off the bat, and they're pretty useful in those earlier levels when they can take out a group of monsters with one or two shots. I never needed those in later game but I'm sure the Draug could take a few grapeshots to the knees since you can't drink potions.

Early game samum/zerrikanian sun can damage and stun whole groups, and that's not even counting red haze or dragon's dream gas attacks, and these weapons are basically free since you'll have a million weightless mushrooms and flowers more than you'll ever need.

I like magic builds over alchemy for my own playstyles but i find the earlier parts of the alchemy tree a lot more fun than the second half.

Edit: Ah, I see drblack already talked about bombs and traps, and I forgot all about oils too! :)

Due to the horrible ai in the game (yes its bad) all you have to do is dodge the attack when he charge. Whack him on the back move away wait repeat. I was like "This was a boss fight O.o?"

No, it becomes overpowered quite early, long before you can use boosted mutagens or berserk mode. I have no points in Swordsman at all, and once I was able to use 4 potions and could increase potion benefits, decrease side effects, I found a potion combination that boosted damage output, gave me insane health regen (to where I could basically take hits as long as it wasn't from behind without worrying about my life bar), and boosted critical effects to the point where I'd incinerate or poison every other person. This was near the beginning of Act 2. And that's not even counting the damage I was doing with bombs and traps or the bonuses I was getting off oils.

If you're splitting points between paths, of course you're not going to feel the full benefits of a path until late game. I've actually heard people say that pure Mage feels the weakest. But based on my two playthroughs, I feel like Swordsman is much weaker than Alchemist, especially before you unlock Whirl for group attacks. The boosted mutagens and other things that you get at the end of the path are nice, but its already overpowered by then if you've doubled up on the right talents rather than spreading yourself too thin over multiple paths.

i see your points guys , however any build can use bombs and daggers early in the game to good effects as you don't really need to put 2 points in the alchemy talent that boosts bombs damage since as you said : Zerrikanian sun are the best "crowd control" bombs and don't use a vigor , and those bombs stun really well even if you have 0 point in the alchemy bomb talent , so the damage issue is almost irrelevant except with grapeshots and samum which i never use ( except with a build where i invested only two points in the alchemy tree , and those two points were spent in the bomb/trap damage talent ) .

Same with a pure mage build who's got good ignii , there is a bomb that deploys flammable gas , so you don't need to invest 2 points in the bomb damage boosting talent of the alchemy tree in order to use the best crowd control bombs effectively , like zerrikanian or gas or psycho active bombs which i rarely use .

IMHO a swordsman who invested all his points in swordmanship instead of alchemy has quite an easier time and better bonuses in chapter 1 (but alchemy build will become much stronger later on ) compared to someone who invested 6-7 points in talents like oil duration , harvest ingredients , harvest mutagens , oil effects, oil duration , impregnation (while he didn't apply his mutagen yet in chapter 1 , so no immediate benefits ) , etc .. , sure it helps , but its nothing like guard 2/2 which doubles your vigor in sword fight only , or whirl 2/2 or violence 2/2 which gives a hard boost of damage which can be improved by potions , or skills like riposte which helps a lot or the massive hp boost or damage reduction you can get in the sword tree which really improve your survivability a lot


I uploaded a save where i'm level 20 in chapter 1 in another thread , i put all points in alchemy except the necessary 6 points in training , and really , i noticed the thing that made my character overpowered later on compared to chapter 1 is when i started stacking the bonuses in damage , vigor regen and especially adrenalin of the sword tree and alchemy tree , and i became nearly invincible when i put 8 greater vitality mutagens with double effect (and two greater power mutagen in the training tree ) , i could have put power mutagen instead to become totally insane in damage output

Personally i found the improved potion talent that negates the side effects of potions and strongly boost the simple potions like swallow or rook was indeed the most poweful talent in the alchemy tree , with impregnation and the last two talents of the tree ( amplification and the other one just before it ) which gives adrenalin , basically making of you the fastest adrenalin recharger build (especially if you have gear that improves adrenalin regen ) , group finishing enemies every few seconds and unkillable with over 500+hp (thx to mutagens ) without potion help and full of crit effects resistances (thanks to mutagens too )

Interesting. How do you consume 4 potions while gaining "insane health regen" at the same time? As far as I know, Gadwall + Swallow contributes to 65% toxicity and I think the lowest toxicity you get on potions is 25% (or is it 20%?). As for boosting crit. effects, Wolf (level 2) multiplies your base percentage by 1.27 so unless you have a good base (from mutagen or a decent sword) it doesn't have a huge effect per se.

Taster does not decrease toxicity, at least for me. So it's more of being able to use 4x 25 toxicity potions.

Agreed.