Hi, I am just wondering if anyone has played the Keep on the Borderlands mod and, if so, what your impressions of it are?

I have always really liked the excellent ToEE engine and combat system; however, I find it difficult to enjoy the ToEE campaign (even with Co8/Temple+), as it seems to be fundamentally quite poorly-designed. I have tried to play it several times and just can't get through it. I have often thought it would be great to see the engine being used for a different, better-designed campaign. So, KotB seems like it would be worth a try.

Criticisms of the ToEE campaign have been listed in many places, but the main issues I have with it are:

- the plot is very weak and the game seems generally quite lacking in direction.

- many of the areas are quite lacking in terms of things the PCs can interact with (very few containers to explore). There seems to be not much in the way of loot to find and relatively few traps and locked doors/containers. Not much in general for a rogue-class character to do.

- the game seems to love springing somewhat unreasonable ambushes on the player, with multiple enemies appearing out of nowhere, and often somewhat overpowered.

I don't know if you would agree with those criticisms or not, but I am curious as to whether KotB improves in any of those areas? I am also curious as to whether anyone can give an idea of hours to complete? How much content is there? I know it is for level 1 starting characters.

I haven't tried KotB, I'm currently having a go with the Co8 New Content.

Admittedly ToEE is a sitting duck for pelting the stones of criticism and much if not all of it is justified unfortunately.
It's much easier to debate a game when the developers fulfill at least their basic duty of actually completing the product which in this case hasn't transpired. Evidently the development was grossly mismanaged.

All of the combat, balance, and script/plot components are far from being alright. Visually it's a peach tho. Backgrounds, models and animations are some of the best in class. Obviously, totally outclasses Infinity. Like no contest, another league, etc.

Guess it's designed for replayability but that's not done right either. Chars are cardboard cutouts, and the battles (contrary to what people would want you to believe) just cannot fulfill the potential of the d20 3.5e system. Not only particular classes/tactics, but *most* of them. Just get a couple of fighters with reach weapons, throw in 2 sorcs and spam fireballs/cleave all the way through the game. Non combat skillset usability is hampered too of course. Hell, you don't even need a thief really to get you to the endgame baddy. No need to worry about special enemies special abilities most of the time - casters are scarce, dangerous ones are singular.
99% of the mobs have only two behaviors - run at you and try to hurt you.
Exploration is almost non-existent. Especially since you're supposed to have multiple playthroughs but everything in this game (and all of its three and a half major locations) is bolted, nailed to its place and won't budge. Random encs are a laugh. Exiting ones are again almost extinct. And probably all of them were broken in vanilla)
In one word - variety. Subj is tragically low on it.

As for your complaint about ambushes - actually I don't think vanilla has them, those that you're probably referring to were added by the Co8 modders. Why they felt it was really really necessary to add completely unoriginal content even to the no new content package is a rhetorical question. On forums they say that those encounters have become ubiquitous and are deemed a part of the canon after all these years. And the original hasn't got a lot of content anyway (which is true) so....

Also I absolutely cannot agree that the game is very hard overall. Play it right and most of it is actually of a very modest difficulty.

As of the fan content.. Where the original is very dry / scarce / reserved, the fan-made writing is, well... amateurish.

Thanks for your reply again, osm. Seems like the two of us are both currently trying to play and enjoy this rough gem :-) . So, where you say you are trying the new Co8 content, you mean the higher-level content, after you complete the main ToEE questline? Sorry to hear the writing seems amateurish, although I wouldn't say the scriptwriting in ToEE is particularly stellar either ;-)

I totally agree with most of your comments about the ToEE campaign and I agree the visuals and backgrounds are very nice, for sure. Good point about the arcane spellcasters. There are quite a few (at least potentially) hostile divine spellcasters in the game: Terdon in Hommlet, Lareth in the Moathouse, and then obviously there are many quite powerful priests in the temple. But, you are right, I can't think of a single hostile arcane spellcaster that I encountered anywhere in the first half of the game. I mean, it is a temple, so I guess it makes sense that there would be a lot of priests and cultists, but to have practically no hostile wizards seems quite poor and speaks to how generally 'off' the balance is in the campaign. I wonder if they simply ran out of time to code the AI for arcane spellcasters?

As for the ambushes: I think at least some of them were in the vanilla game (as far as I recall). Just in the Moathouse area there are several I could mention. The giant frogs ambush the player right at the start. That at least makes some sense, as I could imagine the frogs lurking in the water, waiting to pounce (although, it would seem more reasonable to give the PCs a chance to spot them first). Then in the courtyard I believe there is another ambush, with bandits appearing out of nowhere. Then, if you explore and find the back entrance to the Moathouse, as soon as you enter, you immediately get dropped into combat with a group of bandits all around you on the area transition. In a more realistic scenario, the PCs would open the door; quickly realize there were bandits inside and then fight them from the doorway, perhaps shooting some arrows or spells inside. I mean, all those combats are beatable, but the way they keep getting sprung on you really annoys me.

Part of it is that these 'ambushes' all take away opportunities for a rogue character to scout ahead, to assess potential threats. The game in general seems to hate rogues, since yet again it removes opportunities for them to be useful. You are right - I'm sure you can complete the game without even having a thief. If you know in advance what is coming and just tailor the party to handle waves of fighters and the occasional priest, the game will probably seem a lot easier!

I agree that in general the campaign isn't hugely difficult, if you approach it the right way. When I said that I can't get through it, it's not so much about difficulty, but more because the campaign is so poorly designed that I just don''t enjoy it and struggle to maintain motivation over that length of time.

I think what I will do is give KotB a try and see if it is any better. Perhaps I will report back to this thread with a short review afterwards. I installed it yesterday and got it running. Had a quick go at the first part where you arrive at the keep. I haven't played much of it yet, but a coupe of the dialogues I had seemed quite amusing.

So, where you say you are trying the new Co8 content, you mean the higher-level content, after you complete the main ToEE questline?

yes, the Co8 New Content, there's only one. Some content is also available before the original's endgame.

Sorry to hear the writing seems amateurish, although I wouldn't say the scriptwriting in ToEE is particularly stellar either ;-)

maybe I wasn't clear enough - amateurish in the sense I can tell it's fan made. And the original's style is dry, but ofc also unfinished and unpolished.

Good point about the arcane spellcasters. There are quite a few (at least potentially) hostile divine spellcasters in the game: Terdon in Hommlet, Lareth in the Moathouse, and then obviously there are many quite powerful priests in the temple.

Lareth is a wuss, Terjon was dramatically souped up by the modders, but also no match for high-level party. And he's not hostile for most people playing anyway. Priests themselves are quite weak too. The Noble Salamanders, Balor (and the other elemental gate guards to a varying degree), Ziggy are the real baddies. And those even bc they're are effectively immune to most stuff you can throw at em - at least in Co8. While they debilitate (or simply burn your ass) the party quite easily. Not much, eh? Even in Co8/T+ where the enemies are generally tougher (I think. it's hard to tell with various states of ToEE, since it's apparently been left in such a sorry state on release).

I wonder if they simply ran out of time to code the AI for arcane spellcasters?

My impression they've run out of resources to really finish pretty much anything. To a varying degree. Gross mismanagement by the publisher (or the studio itself. how could they make something as expansive as Arcanum, even though it was all broken as well, but baulk out on something an order of magnitude less massive? Only guess has to be the funds allocated were inappropriate... or whatever)

As for the ambushes: I think at least some of them were in the vanilla game (as far as I recall). Just in the Moathouse area there are several I could mention. The giant frogs ambush the player right at the start.

Ah, those) I didn't even deem them worthy counting in. Yeah, some ppl will bang on about how "combat is divine in ToEE". While it's actually *some parts of the system is good to some degree*, but the system as such doesn't a good game make. Combat takes two to tango, at the very least... And the fights/enemy positioning/AI are all very weak IMO. Some may enjoy assasulting the temple with a monk spade playing solo, but I like my games at least pretend to try to match *my* own efforts to make *it* worthwhile.

Part of it is that these 'ambushes' all take away opportunities for a rogue character to scout ahead
Scouting ahead is practically useless in ToEE. Maybe the 1st time around... and even that mostly bc you don't yet know how useless it is) Another example where a mechanic while being nominally present doesn't change shit in the gameplay.

The game in general seems to hate rogues
I've come to think It hates pretty much anything save great cleaving & combat reflexing fighters wielding reach wepons and fireball spewing mobile turrets/buffing powerhouses that are sorcs) A bit hyperbolic, but in every joke and all that... Archers are comically nerfed for one. They need whole 2 feats to even have a chance to hit anything.

You are right - I'm sure you can complete the game without even having a thief. If you know in advance what is coming and just tailor the party to handle waves of fighters and the occasional priest, the game will probably seem a lot easier!

I've completed it a couple of times and my mainstay composition had been human 2xF, 2xS, 1xC. The last one just to have a diff sort of buffer (who can fight to a degree), not even a healer. It's not BG2 where a cleric makes your life much more bearable with anti-debuffing spells and such. It's just not in this game at all(

I agree that in general the campaign isn't hugely difficult, if you approach it the right way. When I said that I can't get through it, it's not so much about difficulty, but more because the campaign is so poorly designed that I just don''t enjoy it and struggle to maintain motivation over that length of time.

You can cut straight to Ziggy after you've got the Skull.

Unfortunately, I reached a point in KotB beyond which my save games seem to be getting invariably corrupted and won't load. It seems to happen after I kill the hobgoblin chief in the Caves of Chaos, so it is probably something to do with that. It seems like a very persistent issue and I don't see any way to resolve it, so I think I'm going to have to quit at this point, which is a shame.

My impressions of KotB up until that point had been good, although it seemed to be deteriorating at the Caves of Chaos. I enjoyed the start of the game. Several of the low-level side quests in and around the Keep were quite interesting and well-made. It seemed like the designers had made some efforts to avoid some of the issues that detract from the ToEE campaign. There were fewer of the annoying ambushings, more items and loot to find and the Keep and the people in it seemed certainly more interesting than Hommlet. The campaign is based on an old classic D&D module, as with ToEE. The plot is fairly basic. The party arrives at the Keep looking for adventure. They get some starting quests from a notice board in one of the shops and gradually get drawn into the goings on in and around the Keep. I don't think it is going to win any campaign design awards, but it seemed like a decent enough basis for an adventure.

I did run into a couple of (more minor) bugs, before my run was cut short. There was one at the bandit camp, where for some reason the entire map was revealed after I walked past a certain point. There was also a strange incident, where I was invited to dinner with the Castellan in charge of the Keep, but afterwards I was promptly thrown in jail by his guards for 'being in the inner bailey without papers'. I'm not sure if it was a bug or intended behavior; however, if the latter, it seemed like odd design, that the guards wouldn't give the player some amount of time to leave the bailey again.

Most of the early side-quests were good, although several of them seemed a bit cryptic. There were 2 or 3 that I wasn't able to solve and there didn't even seem to be much in the way of leads to go on.

Unfortunately, as I mentioned, the campaign seemed to deteriorate after I reached the Caves of Chaos. I have the impression these are supposed to be the 'main attraction' location of the campaign, like the temple is in ToEE. However, the area seemed a little underwhelming and it seemed to devolve into basically a combat slog against a series of fairly similar trash mobs, to get to the clan chieftains and take their 'marks', which are supposed to let you inside the main shrine. However, unfortunately my playthrough was cut short by the persistent save issues.

Overall, I would have given the content up to the caves a 7/10, but with the save game issues I experienced I have to reduce that to a 3/10 and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. I would give the ToEE campaign probably a 4-4.5. I think I'm done with this game now and it's time to move on. I love the engine and combat, but it's a hard game to enjoy, given how poorly designed the available campaigns seem to be.

Sorry to hear about the save corruption. Can you send me the save files? I may be able to debug and fix whatever caused it (sometimes the save can even be recovered, no promises though).

Hi, sure I'd be happy to send you a couple of those saves. Are you involved with the KotB mod project? I'll invite you as a friend on here and perhaps we can exchange e-mails so I can send you the files?

Yea, I've contributed to the project in the past. But beyond that I'm generally interested in fixing such corruption bugs at the root.
Please send the saves to templeplushelp@gmail.com

Hi, I just e-mailed 3 save game files to that e-mail address. Sorry for the delay, but I had quite a busy week. If you are able to figure out what has caused the corruption, that would be awesome, as I would like to play further into the KotB campaign.

Thanks for reaching out! :-)

I played KotBL back when it was still in beta-release. It worked fine, but I am sure they have added plenty to it since then. TBH if you don't like the old-school sandbox-vibe of the ToEE, you probably won't like KotBL either. Add a ranger to your party or someone who has a high awareness /wilderness survival skill. This increases the chance to avoid wandering monster encounters.

I've spent a couple evenings taking a whack at it. Surprisingly, for such an old game I'm enjoying it a bit.