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I always thought Ubisoft were pretty tight about their games and DRM. Maybe because it's an older game and they don't care that much anymore?
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valkin15: I always thought Ubisoft were pretty tight about their games and DRM. Maybe because it's an older game and they don't care that much anymore?
I don't think they used DRM that much even back then. That is a pretty new thing... By the way they already have Ubisoft games of a pretty similar age on the site... Far Cry and Prince Of Persia - The Sands of Time are both actually newer (though not by much) than Splinter Cell.
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valkin15: I always thought Ubisoft were pretty tight about their games and DRM. Maybe because it's an older game and they don't care that much anymore?
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KajQrd: I don't think they used DRM that much even back then. That is a pretty new thing... By the way they already have Ubisoft games of a pretty similar age on the site... Far Cry and Prince Of Persia - The Sands of Time are both actually newer (though not by much) than Splinter Cell.
back then they used older versions of securom and starforce (which caused major issues in Chaos Theory)
they were still big on DRM, but not nearly as annoying.

the idea of what modern DRM is back then was laughable though, and most didn't think of the basic cd checks and cd keys so much as DRM. in fact some people still think DRM is only the intrusive stuff, and not the basics like checking the manual for answers :P
Post edited May 02, 2012 by GrimCW
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GrimCW: the idea of what modern DRM is back then was laughable though, and most didn't think of the basic cd checks and cd keys so much as DRM. in fact some people still think DRM is only the intrusive stuff, and not the basics like checking the manual for answers :P
GOG doesn't think of checking the manual for answers as DRM. At least you still have to do that in fx Might And Magic 3.
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KajQrd: GOG doesn't think of checking the manual for answers as DRM. At least you still have to do that in fx Might And Magic 3.
for some games its integrated as part of the game itself, such as in Return To Zork.
you get a little ways in, and someone in game asks you a question, get it wrong, and you die, with no way to avoid it, this is an actual game play mechanic crossed with a DRM scheme that actually gives the player some nice little depth and a test.
i kinda miss that style TBH..

in others, Like the original Wing Commander, its at the beginning, and has next to nothing to do with anything.
thus it was removed by GoG.
no idea on MM3 never played it.
Post edited May 02, 2012 by GrimCW
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GrimCW: for some games its integrated as part of the game itself, such as in Return To Zork.
you get a little ways in, and someone in game asks you a question, get it wrong, and you die, with no way to avoid it, this is an actual game play mechanic crossed with a DRM scheme that actually gives the player some nice little depth and a test.
i kinda miss that style TBH..

in others, Like the original Wing Commander, its at the beginning, and has next to nothing to do with anything.
thus it was removed by GoG.
no idea on MM3 never played it.
In MM3 it is in the beginning of the game (as far as I remember it's even before you get to the main menu). It's the "find word x in paragraph y on page z" type of question. At least they have supplied a text file with all the words listed so you don't have to page through the manual.

By the way MM3 is part of a large package containing the first 6 M&M games. So that could be a good excuse... It isn't worth dropping the entire package for this one game. Especially since it is only a nuisance when you start the game...
Post edited May 02, 2012 by KajQrd
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KajQrd: In MM3 it is in the beginning of the game (as far as I remember it's even before you get to the main menu). It's the "find word x in paragraph y on page z" type of question. At least they have supplied a text file with all the words listed so you don't have to page through the manual.

By the way MM3 is part of a large package containing the first 6 M&M games. So that could be a good excuse... It isn't worth dropping the entire package for this one game. Especially since it is only a nuisance when you start the game...
hum.. different.
like i said, the games i have that had it there, had it removed.
maybe it was tight coded in so well it couldn't be pulled?
ahh well.
I don't consider any basic or manual checks to fall under the term DRM. Looking whether you have the game or what came with it doesn't feel to me like there's any rights being managed. From experience, we know that when publishers say "managing their rights," they mean "limiting our rights." So I start calling it DRM (and consequently refrain from buying the product) as soon as a software tries to dictate when, how, how long, how often etc. I can use it. A CD or manual check doesn't do that, even though it might sometimes be a hassle.

I'm pretty sure the manual checks in M&M could have been removed, since that's probably what respective scene cracks would do. Maybe they let it in to keep it more authentic? I know that when I play old games with such protections, installing a crack might get me in the game faster, but I prefer to play them like back in the day and actually solve the copy protection questions.
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Anamon: I don't consider any basic or manual checks to fall under the term DRM. Looking whether you have the game or what came with it doesn't feel to me like there's any rights being managed. From experience, we know that when publishers say "managing their rights," they mean "limiting our rights." So I start calling it DRM (and consequently refrain from buying the product) as soon as a software tries to dictate when, how, how long, how often etc. I can use it. A CD or manual check doesn't do that, even though it might sometimes be a hassle.

I'm pretty sure the manual checks in M&M could have been removed, since that's probably what respective scene cracks would do. Maybe they let it in to keep it more authentic? I know that when I play old games with such protections, installing a crack might get me in the game faster, but I prefer to play them like back in the day and actually solve the copy protection questions.
That would make sense if the question was something to do with the gameplay. But when it is basically a question of finding a word in the manual to me that's not a gameplay challenge but a nuisance... It's not really something I'll complain madly about. But it sure does hamper the gaming experience and makes pirates get a better gaming experience. And to me that is the problem with DRM: Pirates actually get a better product than I do.
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KajQrd: That would make sense if the question was something to do with the gameplay. But when it is basically a question of finding a word in the manual to me that's not a gameplay challenge but a nuisance... It's not really something I'll complain madly about. But it sure does hamper the gaming experience and makes pirates get a better gaming experience. And to me that is the problem with DRM: Pirates actually get a better product than I do.
Well, to me it's part of the experience really. Just like I enjoy the installation procedure of old DOS games, or how I simulate disk reading/writing at their original speed in emulators of old systems, etc. =)
I like that I have the option to skip such things today, should they start to annoy me. But most of the time that "complete package" is, to me, an integral part of enjoying classic games. Since this isn't a focus for GOG releases anyway though, I agree that they should probably have cracked it.

But for me this isn't really a case where I would call the original copy inferior to the pirate one, although objectively some criteria might definitely apply. I really only get pissed off when I'm prevented completely from playing a game when and how I want. Rubbing it in that while the cheap pirates are playing their free game, your $60 bought you the privilege of being allowed to call a €5/min hotline to ask why you can't. But I digress =)
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KajQrd: That would make sense if the question was something to do with the gameplay. But when it is basically a question of finding a word in the manual to me that's not a gameplay challenge but a nuisance... It's not really something I'll complain madly about. But it sure does hamper the gaming experience and makes pirates get a better gaming experience. And to me that is the problem with DRM: Pirates actually get a better product than I do.
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Anamon: Well, to me it's part of the experience really. Just like I enjoy the installation procedure of old DOS games, or how I simulate disk reading/writing at their original speed in emulators of old systems, etc. =)
I like that I have the option to skip such things today, should they start to annoy me. But most of the time that "complete package" is, to me, an integral part of enjoying classic games. Since this isn't a focus for GOG releases anyway though, I agree that they should probably have cracked it.

But for me this isn't really a case where I would call the original copy inferior to the pirate one, although objectively some criteria might definitely apply. I really only get pissed off when I'm prevented completely from playing a game when and how I want. Rubbing it in that while the cheap pirates are playing their free game, your $60 bought you the privilege of being allowed to call a €5/min hotline to ask why you can't. But I digress =)
Besides old starforce games not working on newer computers I can't really think of any games where DRM has prevented me for playing the game as intended. But to me having to put in a CD-ROM to play is a nuisance. And having to keep a manual handy is as well. To be honest I really don't care about authenticity. If I did I shouldn't be running anything in DOSBox but instead on an original 486... :-)
Authenticity as good as possible =) I would be tempted to get a real Apple II to play some games, but there's limits. I just like having the option to have or at least simulate that authenticity. For example I enjoy emulators that acknowledge that everything made the good old days what they were, and do things like GUIs stylised after original hardware, emulating disk drive sounds, CRT-like pixel shaders, etc. =D

As I said I know that disc checks and manuals can become a nuisance, that's why I think they should at least offer the option today to skip it; but I also value the possibility to keep it all intact. After the 20th time of starting a game, you bet I'd be thankful for the option to crack the manual protection away as well ;)

Didn't have the dubious pleasure of not being allowed to play a game yet either, but that's probably mostly because I try to keep informed and am 1000x more cautious when thinking about buying a newer game. Came close a few times but stroke lucky with Steam's offline function. But most people don't know what or why to look out for, so I have several friends who I know were not able to play their expensive Ubisoft games, or who have bought casual titles from Reflexive Arcade that are now all worthless.

That, to me, is DRM. You should always be able to run a Starforce game with an original disc if you can get around the problems of running legacy software in the first place, or play a game with manual protection if you have the manual. More hassle, maybe, but at least you can play it if you really want to. That's what I expect when I spend money on a piece of software. Not having to call daddy and asking if pretty, pretty please I can play the game? If daddy is even still alive...
Post edited May 10, 2012 by Anamon
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KajQrd: In MM3 it is in the beginning of the game (as far as I remember it's even before you get to the main menu). It's the "find word x in paragraph y on page z" type of question. At least they have supplied a text file with all the words listed so you don't have to page through the manual.
That text file, or even the original manual in digital form (e.g. pdf), is basically the crack or at least a workaround for that sort of DRM. The whole point of manual checks was that you'd had to depend on a single physical item (a paper manual) before you could play the game. That's the controlling, or "rights management", part of it. Sometimes they even chose colors so that photocopying the manual wouldn't work.

So with a digital manual or text file, I consider such games still DRM-free. It doesn't control anymore how many can play the same game at the same time, like a single paper manual would.
Post edited June 15, 2012 by timppu