I'm considering my next game for when I complete Planescape: Torment (I'm almost there!)

I'm eyeing up Baldur's Gate I and II, Neverwinter Nights (Horde of the Underdark), and Neverwinter Nights 2 (Mask of the Betrayer)...

After playing through Torment, do you think these games would be worth playing?

You should know that I enjoy Torment *exclusively* for the story, and I honestly believe this game would have been leaps and bounds better if it were designed as an adventure game (With rpg elements. A hybrid). I absolutely hate D&D. Hate. Please take this into consideration when making any recommendations. I would much rather play something if the combat can be breezed through (or ideally avoided!). If playing on easy is an option, that would be good.

The NWN expansions intrigue me - particularly MotB, as it was done by a similar team as well as being under 20 hours in length.

In any case, please, make your comparisons and recommendations!

If all that interets you is the story then Mask of the Betrayer is the only one you should play from that list. Although it is not necessary to play the NWN2 OC to be able to enjoy and understand the story of MotB, you might want to play through at least the first act of it, just to get a basic understanding of your character's background (and to familiarise yourself with the controls, gameplay rules etc.) and when you get bored of it you can just start the expansion. Some events and characters from the OC are also referenced in MotB, but it is mostly a stand-alone adventure with a much better story and characters than the original campaign. The only thing that really ties the two together is that you have to use the same protagnist for both. (But as I said it's not necessary to import him/her, so if you really can't stand the original game it is possible to create a new character from scratch in MotB.)

Otherwise, don't bother with the other games, if you really hate D&D then they will be a waste of money for you.

What sablev said. Given that you are that turned off by D&D and your preference on being able to avoid combat, the BG, IWD, and NWN series are going to be nails on a chalkboard, and the later games' implementation of 3rd edition can make things rather headachey. MotB is really the only one that's worth playing for the plot as far as I can tell, but even that is a little combat heavy, although not nearly as much as the other games; given the Epic Level nature of the combat, it can also be either really easy as you steamroll a fight or a slog as you keep getting wiped out by nightwalkers or high level spellcasters.

If you need more detail about the story or game in general before deciding to buy, take a peek at this LP; fair warning, spoilers abound after the first page.

Thanks for the suggestions! Definitely putting MotB on my play list.

I've also backed Pillars of Eternity and Torment: Tides of Numenera and sincerely look forward to those (about time we get a contemporary traditional rpg!). They seem to be shaping up very interestingly. I only hope they offer comparative experiences in terms of non-combat options, which seems to be the case according to the numerous updates.

You might also check this one out, if you are just interested in story.

I happen to be an expert on this subject.

Honestly BG and NWN aren't for you my friend, a big emphasis in these games is combat, and the Forgotten Realms universe. (tho NWN does have lots of mods that make up for that and a bit of toying with the mod toolset lets you generate some loot for your character so you can cheat your way through the modules in question and remove an challenge in combat.) Honestly you're better off going in a different direction...or maybe lowering your expectations. PST's story is a freakin' masterpiece and you won't find it's like easily.

That said Knights of the old Republic 2 has one of the best star wars stories seen in years and chris avelone was the one who wrote it, in general I'd say look for anything that has avelone as the writer and take a shot at that.

The Longest Journey! I have this game and look forward to playing it. I've bookmarked a walkthrough just in case, as I've heard there are but a few obscure puzzles that might test some patience, and that the game is best enjoyed for its wonderful story. Oddly enough, I've played its sequel Dreamfall when it first came out without having played TLJ, so it would be good to play the original. I've also backed Dreamfall Chapters on Kickstarter, so it sounds like I ought to get around to it. Before I read this, I actually went ahead and bookmarked this game! I've been following Obsidian's (and Chris's) career closely and heard this game holds some fantastic characters and writing! Despite some bugs and unfinished content, the game's fantastic modding community have managed to create the most complete patch that fixes everything and includes most if not all unfinished content. You can find it here.

This patch sounds exciting and looks like it remedies a lot of the game's problems, which makes me very keen to play it. I only just began KOTOR1 (to try out) and though I've not gone far, it certainly feels like the evolution of the Infinity Engine games. I feel like I'll have to get through KOTOR1 before hitting its sequel. From what I've heard of the game, though, that doesn't sound like a bad thing. I think I can swallow copious amounts of combat if it remains fun and doesn't delve too far into dungeon-crawler / grindy territory.

I've also been considering Fallout: New Vegas, but I'm not a fan of Bethesda's game engine. Their engine + first person perspective = destroyed immersion, in my books. Perhaps I'll watch a Let's Play and see if it could be for me.

Based on suggestions and personal research, here is my Fantastic Story, Characters, and Writing backlog:

The Longest Journey - ~20 hours
NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer - ~20 hours
KotOR1 - ~35 hours
KotOR2 - ~35 hours

That's already over 100 hours. I might take my time and play these over the next 3 or 4 months.

Cheers all!

I don't think you reaallly need a walkthrough for The longest journey. There is only one obscure puzzle in the game (mayyybe two), and the rest are entirely reasonable. Once you reach that one you could get by it with the time tested point n click tactic - try everything in your inventory! The reason that didn't work for me is because I missed an item, which I in turn missed because I missed a screen in the game. So just be careful about that: on each screen make sure you know all the different 'exit' points. I missed one right at the beginning and it kinda screwed me over and forced me to the walk though.

Other than that, enjoy!!

I played KotoR2 and really enjoyed it. As you said, lots of combat but satisfying story development with no grind. But it should also be said the re-playability is close to 0, and some learnable skills are more important than others (NPCs can cover certain skills, but not others). So you might at least check out recommendable builds for the main character before you get too far if you want to maximize being able to take advantage of all the "choices" available from the story on your first playthrough.

For me, in a game, the writing, the themes, and how story/stories are told and how they unfold (the directing, essentially) are what are most important to me. Following close with that of course then are the strength of characters, the story itself, the lore, the atmosphere, and how rich/deep I am immersed in a creative world. The music and overall sound also matter a lot to me.

To me, Planescape: Torment is my favorite game of all time, the writing is phenomenal and the surrounding philosophical ideas focusing on being/identity, choice/morality, life/death, and all the other themes to be found, are unmatched in any game I've played.

in RE: to what has been already said in this thread:

I think there are a lot of suggestions for games that you might like that you are missing if you have a little more patience and gaming-ability than what I think these other suggestions are giving you credit for. After all, you have played Planescape: Torment, and even if you do as little combat as possible when you play it, you know what combat is like in it and have weathered it fine and come out the other side with having experienced one of the best pieces of art of the 20th century. Now, that's not going to happen with BG/BG2, but - especially if you put them on an easier difficulty setting - BG/BG2 have a great great story, with great characters, and a lot of great things in them that I consider them worth playing, absolutely, more than KotOR 1 or 2 even. The stories in KotOR 1/2 are very good, and you should play them, definitely, but the power of the writing does tend to lack more than the other suggestions I'm going to make (and to BG/BG2.) The characters, worlds (even though it is Star Wars)/atmosphere, and depth of story just aren't as great in KotOR.

Following that, The Longest Journey is, along side with PS:T, the other of the greatest pieces of story-telling in a game, ever, FOR ME. Again, because of the writing itself as well as the story and the themes which encompass it.

Jumping from there:

Before you even try BG/BG2, if you're going to give some "classic rpgs" a try that you want to get a great story from, play Fallout and Fallout 2 and then Arcanum, THEN play BG/BG2. Make sure you play all of the unfinished business content in all of these games (I guess I shouldn't assume that you've done so with Torment, even, so make sure you play all of that as well if you haven't.) I even recommend going ahead and playing with the mods (the ones that don't change too much, just unlock content/fix a lot of bugs) on your firs time through for them all.

From there:

Depending on how much you want to tussle with any of those games combat mechanics/systems and how long it may take you to eventually make it through any or all of those games (though really, you can just turn the combat difficulty down and breeze through, but the experience and effort you put in DO help the story pay off a little because of actually experiencing some of what the character's have to go through a little more) you may want to experience some other REALLY GREAT stories that other games have to offer. Try these:

Interstate '76 - Can you play driving games that have good physics and aren't complete arcade-style? Do you like to? Even if no, I think for this game you could like to. While this game is a car-combat game at its core, once you get a feel for it (it has a learning curve for driving and shooting targets, but once you get the hang of it, it is KILLER FUN, some missions can be hard even then, but again, you can adjust difficulty level), it is seriously one of the best games EVER. What makes it that way? Aside from its unique game play that I find addictive and extremely cathartically satisfying, it has all of the fore-mentioned crucial characteristics: great writing and directing unfolding a great story with great characters in a rich atmosphere accompanied by one of the BEST soundtracks ever in a game.

System Shock 2 - Again, a different type of game, it sort of plays like a kind of FPS, but it's not good to think of it as a FPS at all. It has inventory, character customization with leveling and allows for different play-styles (stealthy vs. gun-blazing, with a bit of variability.) Again, a really great story that is written and unfolds very well, the voice-acting is superb adding even more to the atmosphere that is one of the best ever in a game.

There's others with very good stories, The Witcher series, Gabriel Knight 2, and about a dozen other adventure games that all are worth while if you like a good story. But that's enough for now, I need to go make lunch!

Ah, that damned rubber ducky. I had started TLJ before my hard drive crashed, so my progress got wiped out, but I remember getting that far and having to resist the urge to headdesk. Definitely looking forward to giving it a second chance, however, even if it does seem to be gearing up for the nonsensical technology vs. magic dichotomy that plagues Shadowrun. <3 Oh Chris Avellone... <3 There's a man after my heart. The stories I've seen him tell are either excellent (PST, for instance) or, in the event that he is forced to work with the bog standard *cough*NeverwinterNights2*cough*, he consistently does a great job of turning the material on its head in certain ways and inverting some of the more tired tropes that the setting foists on him.

Anyway, hope that your selection has been working out well for you.

Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with you on the BG series. Combat in PST, while technically using the same engine as the BG series, is a completely different animal. Setting aside the fact that a lot of combat in BG takes place in close quarters that makes the AI do impressions of headless chickens, the degree of system mastery needed to prevail is much higher than it is in PST. In PST, I could get by by casting a couple of basic long-lasting buffs then wading into melee and firing off the odd offensive spell. In BG, you have to rely on short-lived debuffs that might not even work against the enemy, and there is generally very little room for error given the low-level nature of the campaign. Finishing PST doesn't really prepare you for any of that.

Even if it did, OP has stated flat out that they *hate* D&D, and BG is about as bog standard D&D as you can get. The plot has no real surprises, the companions have nothing to contribute to the plot beyond a couple of catchphrases and their muscle, and the villain is so cartoonish that he pales in comparison to even the most minor named NPC in PST when it comes to his writing (which seems to be OP's priority). Granted, some of this does seem to get better in BG2 when the companions have personal agendas that crop up, but they do so without any player prompting (which removes the sense of player agency in being able to choose to engage the NPC in dialogue) and have no relation to the main plot (either thematically or otherwise). That's before getting into the numerous pacing problems that the narrative in BG1 had. That's not exactly "great story" material, at least not when compared to PST and MotB.

It doesn't even have the ability to claim Fallout status by virtue of being a story about the setting, since the setting is the Forgotten Realms, aka Tolkein ripoff 419. Trying to tell a story about that kind of setting is pointless due to it being a highly derivative setting that has been copied more times in fantasy than an exam at the world's least academically sound college. Fallout, on the other hand took great care in crafting a post-apocalyptic society that managed to feel unique and alive, depicting life in differing settlements in excruciatingly harsh detail.

The Longest Journey is probably my most favorite game of all time. Brilliant, occasionally tear-inducing with an emotional story that's quite grasping.

It's sequel, or better said game set in the same world, only in part successfully captures (and through increadibely great graphics for such a low system requirements broadly enriches) the world's visual beauty, but is slightly hampered due to being a bit of an action-adventure hybrid.

By the way, have you though about Arcanum perhaps?

I wasn't comparing the combat engines or how you fight in the games at all, certainly t hey are different animals. I was comparing the ability to endure combat in a game that you would prefer not to have to go through in order to get something else out of the game; I detail the differencein my post, in that when finishing through PS:T you're left with having completed an epic piece of art of heart and mind, and BG/BG2 doesn't compare to that at all, certainly, but what does compare is that, I think (especially if you play BG/BG2 on easy difficulty), if you are able to endure the one's combat you should be able to endure the other and the payoff is there; not the same payoff, but still a payoff. Yes, the story and everything isn't as amazingly excellent as PS:T, but it is still pretty great IMO. But even so, I was suggesting before even ever playing BG/BG2, to play a handful of others. But eventually, after Fallout, Fallout 2, Arcanum, Interstate '76, SS2, even the Gabriel Knight series, even some others, if you still want for a good story in a fantasy setting, BG/BG2 are worth playing, especially towards the end of BG2 and in to the ToB expansion, they story gets very well told, even if it is full of standard tropes. And if you breeze through on easy, it definitely has payoff. From about the Drow City on I find the individual stories and overall storyline very compelling, and up until there it's still pretty darn good. Irenicus grows on me as a villain, and gets better as a villain later into BG2 more than he is earlier.

Definitely don't let the amount of time spent talking about BG/BG2 fool you into thinking they are in the same caliber as PS:T, Fallout, Fallout 2, and Arcanum, those are truly unique and special, certainly, and BG/BG2 don't belong with them.