After being hurt and in my opinion treated unfairly by Owlcat Games moderator after a series of event involving Steam Support at Steam forums, and considering with the lack of activity within these forums, I am back at where I was just to turn around and ignore the Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous community for good.

I am loving to chat about the game and helping the people, but the toxicity and the lack community support makes me thing that the worst of the community and Owlcat Games policy on communities deserve each other. At least that is the impression I have been getting all the time, considering I did not only critisise that but also offered alternatives and solutions.

As before, I will not mind if Owlcat Games make use of my collection of notes I made in regards of countless bugs, workarounds, hints, etc. etc. pp. The big batch you can find here:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1184370/discussions/0/2963922521568105023/

I have wished that malale or Gala would have at least given me proper feedback on my suggestion to improve communication in order to help the players and address hot issues better and faster. But even that has been lacking so far.

I am not ignoring the fact that there have been holidays at Owlcat Games, but I am critisising several things openly in several discussions at Steam forums. Whether the weird impression made by Sergey leading to people openly commenting that it is not worth to submit bug reports unless you make a visual presentation in addition on reddit, or the fact that Mac users seemingly being ignored for too long, leading to some sort of escalation with very old bugs in the recent patches.

I was and am still very happy that the bug reports I have sent seemed to be addressed properly. And that after long it seems with MetaPub we are having some open channel at GOG.com. But the forums here still feels dead, the forums at Owlcat Games feel untended and neglected and Steam... well I mentioned that already.

I endured hate and defamation while putting my trust in the developers, for they seem being friendly and easy to approach. Maybe it was just wishful thinking at this point, and I am still grateful and rather keep that thought instead throwing all that overboard just because I have reached my personal limit of frustration after being personally hurt.

Why in tarnation people keep thinking I have moderator rights, or I would be affiliated with Owlcat Games, or whatever they consider "white-knight" I have never understood, considering all my feedback towards Owlcat Games. I am convinced that feedback should be within feedback rules, and that unreasonable demands, badmouthing and anger should be kept away from forums and anything to ensure a safe and fun environment for a community to thrive. A community which is a win:win for customers, players and developers alike.

It harms everyone when actual feedback gets hidden by ~ bad stuff. The more I insist on justice and proper addressing of actual important issues by the developers. If the game does not work and the developers did not manage to deliver a fix within 14 days or 30 days, by all means - be open about it and allow frustrated customers to have a refund. GOG.com allows those, if the developers/publishers declare it. Stuff like that are important to me. If you will, you can sum it up to customer-merchant trust - in this case as Owlcat Games being the merchant. If the trust is broken... well, you and everyone else have your own standards how you would deal with someone you no longer trust.

I like the game, and I keep my review as it is. But I am not happy with the community handling. I am that kind of person who is convinced that enjoying every game becomes a better experience when you can chat and talk about it with other people. Even or especially if it is a single player game. That is why I value game communities. But then I might look at things from an aged perspective where bulletin boards were all we got. Most people seem to use those strange weird new things like reddit or discord nowadays, platforms which seem to be void of classic rules and manners to me.

After "puking" out most of what hurt and frustrated me I am underlining how much I love the game. And I have high hopes for future Pathfinder and Starfinder games by Owlcat Games. Hoping that Owlcat Games becomes a strong brand, as strong as Larian - established and well reknown for their very complex cRPGs and great adaption of adventure paths.

But as I have mentioned it in another thread before: please do not lose your credibility by tackling a matter half heartedly. You either tend GOG.com forums properly, or you do not offer them in the first place. You either offer proper Mac support, or you do not sell with Mac support advertised. Be honest and open with your mistakes, for the fans will love you for you (Owlcat Games) not being a big AAA studio. I can relate why so many consider the game being a beta or early access, as well as I can relate with many reasons why it was released as it was at launch. Nevertheless as a fan and supporter I am to say: if you released the game as early access you probably would have made the same amount of sales and even more. Because the mouth to mouth advertisement would be that Owlcat Games delivered a great game which needs polishing, but is definitely a must have for every cRPG enthusiast. The same without the bad distaste people feeling being lied to when they expect a polished and working game at launch. This statement of mine also probably would not have so much weight if it was not for all the Mac users who cannot get further past the beginning of Act 2 and other issues which are definite and undenyable game breaking.

Last but not least, as I wrote before in private:

Thank you very much for your hard work, MaLal. Also many thanks towards your colleagues, whether Starrok or galagraphia and whoever else took their time for some fan communication.

I hope Cookiie is well.

I have had the impression they gave up too early on GOG.com community, considering all the hate posts short after launch. Unfortunately that did solidfy the issues GOG.com forums had at that point.

~ Requesting thread to be closed for good. ~

First posted on Steam ~ sharing it here too since the thread is not closed yet
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1184370/discussions/0/2963922521568105023/?ctp=2#c3205995441629702046

Proof of Concept
A few words in regards of the proof of concept:

Game crashes for MacBook users - Community Addendum Extra
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1184370/discussions/0/5406000785154611811/

Back then when I was new with the community I noticed quick the issues, so quick that either MaLal got lucky or really saw the experience I am having. So I suggested them via private message a system to lessen the burden on the developer marked users with the forums, while enhancing the quality of bug reports and pointers towards something I shall call here topics of interest.

The reasoning is simple: among the many community contributers there are also a lot with questionably behaviour, making it unfun and even unsafe to enjoy your time with the forums. It goes beyond the behaviour of treating forums like discord, reddit, twitter or snapchat or whatever youngsters these days prefer. I really do not like to think Steam forums as proper forums, considering the crippled vBulletin board engine. Such a waste...

However, many important contribution like valuable hints towards some very nasty bugs and their workarounds or sources [s]might have gotten[/s] gotten loss in that chaos. Corrected myself based on evidence delivered by galagraphia's statement. Whether it is a mistake by her or in general, it shaken my on the developer marked users.

The idea was easy, simple, effective and benefits every participant. By giving the community more illusion of power and creating a system of having multiplier among the user/player base. Not limited to moderators, but enhancing the will of enthusiasts and supporters by showing instant feedback in their doings to help: filtering through the community input, having by the end of the day the most important topics pointed out.

On a weekly basis selected topics gets addressed by developers marked users with additional information provided towards the multipliers. Leaving enough room to be legally safe and yet informative.

The win for the community was clear: the developer marked users either have not enough time nor enough experience to deal with communities the proper way. A much critisised point by me, whereas the developer marked users show little to no interest to change. But the community can still be salvaged by using the correct levers and making certain cost free improvements by using available tools. Up until the point that the community can be on equal footing as the community managers.

The wanted end result would have been that instead a community manager waste their time on multiple days of the week ~ e.g. 5x30 minutes ~ they would instead spend 1~2 hours of quality time with said multipliers. Giving quality replies and getting in return quality bug reports and feedback. While that is a far stretch goal, it is reachable.

There is even so much more which can be done, if Owlcat Games utilise their available resources on their own website properly, and promote it, rather than relying on Steam forums.

The first step of creating a demonstration to underline my suggestion towards MaLal was this thread. I knew there is already a thread with known issues and workarounds. And the pinned threads seemed helpful. But they were not tended. So I made this one as an extra, an addendum. In my opinion it saves a lot of time and shows that the developers care about the community, if they take proper care of these kind of threads. Having the original threads untended for weeks, then months, kinda give the impression the developers do not care at all. It was heartbreaking when it seemed to be just cold death threads with no developer actually checking on the comments made there past the first two weeks after launch.

Having developer MetaPub helping me creating an update gave some silver lining. Which got busted with no one at Steam forums caring about implementing the update I have prepared with MetaPub.

The idea was and is simple. With the second part of the addendum having important topics highlighted the players have a quick and easy accessible source to look up what interest them most ~ e.g. Respec issue or recently Follow up camera. While the developers get very early a filtered list of topics of interest.

However, community engagement was ever so low in this thread and my other threads I consider important feedback ~ by now I truly gotten the impression no one wants actually this, despite some users said otherwise. Without any support but tons of toxicity this project of mine to support the developers of the game I like so much turned out like an energy waster with no actual reward or benefit for me. While the actual benefits get mostly ignored.

The second step was to highlight one issue which was clearly buried beneath the toxicity and lack of interest of the community. The MacSteamThread. A weird hashtag galagraphia made up which keep reminding me of McDonald's. You know ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifD-UYyBFRM

It was clear from the very beginning, that there were something wrong. Some forums posts I read indicated the issues were even there during beta. But the forums posts were chaotic, you could not even tell those were about Macs unless you find a hint or two or asked the users directly. One thread was prominent, while 15 others pop up and pop away again, as if they were not there to begin with. And when said prominent thread kinda died, I started the addendum extra.

At first I tried to get the attention of the developers. Never hard, but humble. I have had much faith of them after they said in the other thread they would monitor the forums. I mean, that is surely more than I did ~ so I thought. After somewhat two weeks passed I emailed to the team directly and linked them the thread. Finally Gala Dolgikh showed developer presense. What about the others? Starrok, MaLal, tired_darkspawn, Wooden_Dragon, 2000Valand and so on?

I was looking forward for the issue to be resolved. I mean, after the thread got finally recognised by at least one developer it was like knighthood for my proof of concept. With 1.1.0i and the patches aftwards all of sudden the thread became popular. WHAT THE HECK?! Why did the thread needed popular to get the attention it gets now?! I have sent links so often to the team.

It was crushing. A case after another giving me hard undeniable evidence, that the developers ignored my efforts. Unlikely personal, but still. First the Mac issue. I really like the idea of implementing tags to the bug reports to make them easier tracable. But it also kinda reveals that my assumption bug reports were sorted properly by the developers was wrong. I thought they would prioritises critical bugs over others and I also assumed they would be able to sort them by OS. Based on those assumptions the issues should be crystal clear from start - not just now due to the thread.

Holy...
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1184370/discussions/0/3165461775595352257/#c4577340984556425208

I doubt anyone noticed the issue the same way as I did. For more than two weeks the issue with the camera was a topic of interest. So much that I added it to the addendum early. But the developer statements in https://steamcommunity.com/app/1184370/eventcomments/3165461775612433192/ kinda shows all my efforts were not just in vain - but the forums monitoring seemed like a lie. Hey, I know of the holidays. But an issue which created so many threads and was known for so long ~ even if you return from holidays it is really hard to miss. Especially when you have a filtered information source too. My addendum ist wasted.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1184370/discussions/0/5406000785154611811/?ctp=6#c3205995441629354268

Another comment which shows that the developers ignored the forums. At first it was visible with players who applied 1.1.1k and then started to have had issues in regards of their settings and portraits. My suspicion was that somehow the patch did copy over or move over or whatsoever did with the save games, but ignored the rest of the profile folder. The same mistake I made early with the workaround, but I also changed the workaround very early to counter said issue.

https://steamcommunity.com/app/1184370/discussions/0/3165461775614356406/

If the developers actually read the notes all along the way, the follow up issues created by the patch should not exist. And galagraphia's statement is that much problematic, as if she is not aware at all in regards of the very old save game bug which is also mentioned in said thread. BUT! HERE IS THE IRONY! GALAGRAPHIA REPLIED BACK THEN TO THAT REPORT https://steamcommunity.com/app/1184370/eventcomments/3092275748064989357/#c3092275748065177821

*sigh* I just want to cry, thinking of all the hate I endured while also keeping my faith into the developers up. I am certain I did not think too highly of them, but the dissapointments in addition to me gotten hurt so much is simply too much. I kept on going with a few words of thanks here and there, but the bad stuff seems always outbalancing.

For the future I suggest to make a proper forums system. With moderation. Which brings us back to the multiplier idea from before. Having a semi-official-community-thread for every hot topic of interest and then assigning it a thread tag.

Like #HalfPairBuffIssue or #CharacterGen111

A subsection of the forums would be nice, where only users with a certain rank (like moderators or the Community Support Squad ~ another thing I suggested to MaLal) could open threads. But everyone can post. It would cut the issues which general discussions have, and create a much better visibility - more than a bug sections could ever do.

In that subsection such topics like the MacSteamThread would be posted, and developer marked users have to reply to them as soon as possible. Even if it just means letting the community know they took proper note of them.

With the right structure and order, the community can be a strong and reliable partner for the developers. And if the developers do it right, they can have the community as that strong and reliable partner without angering the community by giving them a bad feeling as if they are testers. It would be a win:win:win for everyone if done right. And it would be honouring the kickstarter roots as well. The suggestion I made way back then ~ I am still convinced it is something to be taken into consideration by Owlcat Games.

It works.

Sorry you had to deal with so much hate. I don't go to the Steam forums much for this game (or any big game really) since most of the large game forums there are so toxic and just not worth the effort. I am not sure if Owlcat's own forums are any better I haven't looked into it much. Gog forums are slow and dead looking so that I wonder if there is anyone visiting them sometimes or maybe they are and they skim and read like I do most of the time.

Your posts have always been very informative and helpful and I am glad you took the time for working so hard to track issues.

To me it seems most who visits these forums give up quick and then try to change to Owlcat's homepage's forums or to Steam. One even wrote the forums here is like a wasteland.

For a long time there were no posts at all, despite I am checking daily, several times.

I probably would not be bothered this much if the ones with the developers tags did not give a different impression at start. As I tend to say: I believe in a good cooperation between developers and the community, leading to a win:win for everyone who allows it and means it sincere.

Also, I just notice, I forgot to mention my latest suggestion will work best with Steam forums and Owlcat Games inhouse homepage forums. GOG.com is lacking audience and resources aka the forums limitation over here are too strong. This is basically the most basic bulletin board you can get without any meaningful upgrades and addons phpBB had over time.

By all means: I do not even know why publisher would want these forums for more than setting up a pinned thread with links to their main forums. The official moderators are chronically understaffed and the design is lacking any kind of appeal. When I opened it with my smartphone's browser I even noticed it did not support a mobile version which is considered old standard ~

The problem I have with most developers' forums is that their search functions tend to be very poor, so if I have an issue or question it is very difficult to find topics that match..... Plus there is so much BS much being slung by the self-appointed expert players that post there; it almost feels like Facebook....

I have no idea which forums you refer to. But you are right in general with that.
The problem however lies in the forums handling. As someone who did setup many forums boards in the past, whether the free phpBB, the popular WoltLabBB, or the highly advanced vBulletin Board, I can say that most do not make the best of their software. A lot of crippling is due to the fact that special platforms like Steam do not want to deal with all the work which comes with moderation, when you have vBulletin work on full throttle with all the awesome features.

But a secluded forums like with Owlcat Games on their homepage should be no problem at all. In addition to that we have had in the past (generally speaking) active moderators, which actually fulfill the role of moderators. It was their job to manage the forums day in and day out, and they made new topics to keep the flow and momentum going, while fitting member topics to their needs.

So yeah, of course the search function goes "bullocks" without moderation and certain rules.
That is also the basis of the suggestion I have made above. It will be much easier for the developers to use a filtered system which they can rely on. Less topics to search through, and with tagging much easier finding and tracking. And it even works in two ways if the members of a forums can search for the bugs and see if they are addressed before or not.

Right now the forums usage are more... a state of "it is there, and I am not sure what to do with it" from a publisher/developer perspective. At least that is the impression I personally got. Like they do not know much about forums software or community dynamics and management at all, despite those developer marked users are listed as community managers within the credits. Weird, is it not? At least I think so.