Completely agree. By errata rules, Spell Combat doesn't even work with Slashing/Fencing Grace. Just as stupid.

I think I'll settle on a Dex-based Human Eldritch Scion 19/Dragonscale Fist 1 and using Monk Robes as armour.

For Bloodines, I was thinking about Copper Dragon, since it gives more damage on Electricity Spells, i.e. Shocking Grasp.

there are little to no electricity spells and all electrical templates are lines. silver dragon would be better. frigid touch, ice storm, cone of cold, etc. fire is ok if you pump Cha as a primary stat. there is +2DC fire ammy in the game and alchemist can toss you a barkskin to compensate.

Cool enough. (See what I did there?)

Won't that pose a problem with Undead, who are immune to cold? Or should you just hit them with a sword?

Everything and their dog is immune/highly resistant to electricity in this game. just undead is a good deal, compared to that. also dragon's breath is usually taken for that exact reason and should everything fail you still do have a sword and arcane weapon enchantments.

still take shocking grasp for sure, but I don't think it's worth trying to augment it with bloodline.

We usually get a good laugh out of babby beginner powergamers like you. You're JUST at that level where you've discovered that a 20 Strength Half-Orc Barbarian isn't the most powerful thing in the world, but you're still so possessed of wrongthink and misunderstandings that it'd be adorable if you weren't ALSO a D&D player and therefore have your head two feet up your rear in self-assured smugness.

I looked over your godawful builds. They're fun to think about. Fun to imagine at the end of the game when everything unlocks. But when you become more seasoned, you understand that you don't build for endgame. You build for play with a mind toward endgame. Everytime you squeal about trading off a level 13-16 ability with limited uses for making a build stronger for the first 15 levels to get there, it just exposes your ignorance. It gets everything useful out of Saint. L2play I know. I've seen your beginner builds. Here's a tip for you. Sword Saint AC and Duelist AC? They stack. You double-dip Intelligence. I could go into Riposte, Precise Strike and everything else, but those are a bit too advanced for you. *nosepinch* Rogues and Magus have the same BAB progression. You get those at Sword Saint 7, which is what I said to take the class to. I really shouldn't have to mollycoddle you this much. It's about feats, not Sneak Attack. Again, I explained this to you. Vivisectionist is nice, but you don't get the free Weapon Finesse and Dex to Damage feats. Given the build requires a deep dive into the Crane Style and a number of other feats, getting two free, AND several dice of spell-stacking sneak attack makes the Rogue the superior option.

Anyhow, good luck with your next 20 Str Half-Orc Barbarian build!

Roahin, I don't want to get involved in the discussion, but InEffect's builds is a lot closer to what I was looking for than your Rogue/Duelist suggestion.

That's completely okay. Mine was originally an RP build (still capable of clearing the game on Hard Mode) that I posted on a D&D site in a thread for players who were interested in doing an Aldori build. The Dueling Blade is a notoriously awful weapon, but you can't deny that the setting begs for a build around one. Still, I'd think most new players would get a lot more out of InEffect's parade of Aasimar with all 7's and 18's builds than lore appropriate ones. Hope you found what you were looking for!

Sweet! Will try this one(or at least somethinglike) when 1.1 will be here and I'll start a brand new game.

I agree about a lot with InEffect, but this is just BS.

Base Class gets Spell Recall, which can easily mean twice as much Shocking Grasps/Frigid Touches/Mirror Images/Vampiric Touches. Also for a Magus, who mostly relies on low level spells, its actually better then spontaneous casting. Just memorize 1 off each and Spell Recall everything as needed.

For me the ranking is as follows:
1. Sword Saint: Best AC by far, nice damage, critical, AoO and Speed boosting abilities.
2. Standard Magus: (Improved) Spell Recall is just awesome
3. Eldiritch Scion: Bloodlines are very cool, but don't bring anything particularly substantial to the table.

The 2 first spots are debatable... the third for me is not.

ES gets a lot more AC a lot faster with a monk dip. yeah the damage could be better, but arcane weapon solves it well enough. all things considered ES is about 10-15AC above saint all game long.

STR ES will probably outdamage the saint while having the same AC.

saint gets a tad more damage going for him and is more tolerant to multi-classing so you can pack a bit of vivisectionist/AT into him. not too bad, but then why bother at all if you can be playing scoundrel that does about 3x the damage with the same AC give or take?

at 20(if you know how to abuse the game to get it) ES is better with no competition at all as he gets sense vitals

standard magus is pretty much a shit paladin(or a shit scoundrel) who doesn't even. no AC to have any business being in melee.

touch spells do not matter once you get to lvl6 spells(or get purity, or both) cause you will fight transformed.

I get the feeling you're forgetting the SS is getting Int to AC. That's like 7 extra AC, more if you push Int. Most of it available very early (4 in Act 1, 5 by level 6-7).

What does the ES get? If he goes Draconic (and sure, why not), +4 AC. At level 15. Prior to that it's +1/2 AC. Plus Wings, also at level 15. If you really like wings, you better go Aasimar, at least you'll get to enjoy them at level 10.
So I can see -3 AC for the ES. I don't understand where your +10/15 comes from?

From pushing Charisma real hard and Scaled Fist monk? Well, a Sword Saint with a Traditional Monk dip and a few points in Wis plus +8 Wis item will also get +7/8. Still nowhere near +10/15. To get significantly more you'd have to ignore your main hitting/damaging stats, which I'd not recommend.

And as for planning fighting Transformed... perhaps you should not play a Magus?

Btw. Spell Recall is not limited to Touch Attacks. But when you want to drop someone fast, being able to spam lots of touch attacks can be very helpful.

I don't forget it, but it comes slowly and crane style lags very much behind as there is no reason to dip into a monk, so no crane style for this one in earlygame
monk dip for instantly ALL cha to AC, no need to wait for level. monk robes +5 dodge ac(best saint can hope for is +2 censor robes), +4 from bloodline, crane style allows for painless fighting defensively usage and faster crane wing, thats another 9 AC.
yes, very-very late saint can get all of the above and wings too if he is aasimar) the difference is just about about 7AC from bloodline and robes, but for most of the game ES is 10-15 AC ahead an can facetank stuff from the beginning to end.
saint can't really afford to dip into monk. his only real advantage is being able to get sneak attacks with no harsh drawbacks. He aslo doesn't have enough stats to warrant it. just 7 AC he would be able to procure from it are not worth botched progression and the loss of the only good thing he has going for him.
perhaps you should try playing on hard/unfair? you will not ever hit anything reliably without transformation. and yeah magus endgame is literally buffing with everything and transformation. it's nice to have a character that has most of the useful arcane buffs and arcane weapon and can still hit stuff. there is arcane accuracy and stuff but it will only get you so far.


upd I am not really arguing for which one should be played, but in practice I like ES better. there are enough companions that can do damage. not enough companions that can facetank anything and never ever get hit.

Why would you write that? I dipped monk at level... 2? Having +3 Wis AC and Crane Style for reasonable trade on another +4 AC made it very worth it.
Also Int AC bonus comes slowly? At level 5 you're already maxing it, later on levels come much faster then additional Int bonuses.

Again, my Sword Saint enjoys Wis AC bonus, the very same robes and the very same Crane Style (and better Will saves).
The difference is 3 AC more for Int to AC then the Bloodline bonus (though most of the game more, as Bloodline only gives +4 at level 15). Oh and maybe your Cha is 1 point higher then my Wis.

Why not? Any why sneak attacks? My Sword Saint has no sneak attacks, just a 1 level monk dip. And Arcane Strike, Greater Weapon Specialization and Int to damage vs flat footed (which is most of the time with Shatter Defenses).
On demand also increased crit multiplier (with Int bonus to confirm crits).

with no sneak attack his damage is shit, plain and simple. and sword saints whole selling point is he gets more damage on early levels and doesn't have to worry about lvl19 bonus spells. what I did on SS run is V1/SS13/AT4+SS after that way you get 4 AC when you need it and have 5d6 sneak dice+ss flat-footed damage. that's decent enough considering he gets that bump at a reasonable pace. damage actually justifies all the hassle with lower AC. now if you go the monk route you sacrifice damage or spell progression severely and if you are already abandoning damage ES is better as it gives more AC faster. My approach to this is just cutting all half-measures. MC must do at least one thing amazingly well and the rest comes as a bonus. So as far as magus goes it's ES for AC and SS for damage.

I still would argue that scoundrel is better in almost every way possible if you are going for a dps gish, but SS is a nice flavor option with a bit more AC.

Once more, a Sword Saint with a monk dip gets more AC then an Eldritch Scion - faster too. I already listed the facts above, so I won't repeat them.

How does a V1/AT4 get 5d6 sneak damage? I calculated 1d6+2d6. Okay, you can take Accomplished Sneak Attacker, but that's still 4d6. For that you sacrifice 3 points of BAB (you barely get the 3rd attack at the end), +1 weapon enchantment (that could also be a +d6 elemental damage) and the ability to take Bane Blade enchantment at level 15 (16 with a Monk dip), which is separate from normal enchantment limit and provides +2 more AB and +2d6 damage. Additionally you delay the ability to use Brilliant Energy enchantment, which makes you ignore enemy armors and shields. And you burn a feat as well. Not a cool trade in my book.

How is ES better if you're abandoning sneaks, when he gets less AC and no Int-to damage or Greater Specialization?
No ability to increase crit multiplier, get Int to confirm crits, no extra Attacks of Opportunity and no Initiative boost too.

An ES gets... the ability to wear armor, a little Strength, a few more points of damage on some spells and 1 more spell slot per spell level. But if you want to focus more on spellcasting, you should really go for a standard Magus.