I can never play a good game, without musing over how it could be even better than it already is. The classes are one key area in MM7 where some tweaks would not only make things more convenient, but more importantly, do so in a way that would open more strategic possibility in how to create your party (rather than just give us the opportunity to simply be more powerful, some nerfs would get thrown in too).

Tweaks I'd make:

DRUID: Gets GM in elemental and self magic schools at Great Druid or Warlock tier. Nerf their weapon proficiencies down to what was the norm for the Sorcerer. Even consider making them into the only class with NO armor skill.

MONK: Becomes in effect what the Paladin was meant to be in MM6. Gets GM in self schools at top promotion tier, but with limited SP, and takes a really big nerf to HP. Good at Meditation skill to expand limited SP, and can eventually GM (they are Monks, after all!).

PALADIN: Replaced with new class, Barbarian. High proficiency with weapons, with GM in Axe and Armsmaster. High HP. Eventually gets GM in Dodging!

ARCHER: Refocus on armor over weapons, while changing name from "Archer" to something like "Battlemage". Less weapon focus, but gets Plate Armor. GM elemental at top promotion.

RANGER: Becomes the GM Bow class. Also become the only class apart from Cleric and Sorcerer to get GM Light/Dark at final promotion. Finally we can break outside the Cleric and Sorcerer box. Surely some other tweaks as well.

KNIGHT/THIEF/SORCERER/CLERIC: Don't know what specific tweaks to make with these ones yet.

I'd love to hear people's thoughts, if anyone has ever entertained a similar thought experiment. :)

You do the reverse, you make it more powerfull.
And they're not my taste, I greatly prefer the vanilia classes.
I don't want the ranger becomes an archer, I want him still a ranger.
I want a paladin, and I prefer him as a warrior instead of more magic.
I want an archer class, a warrior specialised in archery, and not becoming a stronger magician.
I like hybrid classes, let them being hybrid, and so not a strong warrior nor a strong magician, but still good in both.
If I prefer MM7, that's because for me it has the truest hybrid classes.

At first, I thought you'll talk about balancing the quite useless skills, such as the Ranger "identify monster".

Well, I didn't say it would just be a nerf. I meant that they'ed be more powerful in some ways and nerfed in others to compensate.

My reasoning on the magic is that by late game, you really *want* to have some GM-tier magic. That means with the game as it's designed, you're almost *forced* to take a Cleric and Sorcerer (or at least one), which severely limits party build strategies. Also, hybrid classes feel like dead weight when your Cleric/Sorcerer does everything better.

I think shrinking the SP count for hybrid classes would be a good way of making sure the GM didn't erase their hybrid status. Like, maybe they could cast one or two Starburst/Incinerate spells before resting. Their magic would be GM, but a very limited resource you'd have to use sparingly and shrewdly, very much unlike the Sorcerer or Druid. You should feel a need to take Meditation with your hybrids just to get any precious extra little SP you can.

Speaking of Druids, MM7 gives them *tons* of spell points, but... what is the Druid going to do with any of it? By late game, most Master-level damage spells just aren't making the cut. Utility and heal spells are only going to use a small fraction of his SP. The Druid is something of a wasted opportunity as it stands in MM7. Though rightly popular in MM6, many people demoted the Druid to "second worst class" in MM7.

What do you like about the Ranger? What does the Ranger do well in MM7?

Yes it's difficult to balance hybrid classes, as they must be able for the high end game, being still usefull while not being as able in something than a pure class.
This is same problem in MMOs, where hybrids may be despised for raiding party, highest level content.

Often, the problem with hybrids, it's the players: hybrids are less easy to play, they need more intelligent players, as hybrids dosn't count on their own strenght, but to adapt on the weakness of opponent.
Example: a ranger may be good with bow and dualwield blade, but not the best archer or the best tank or melee dps,
but he will be able to win by choosing his weapon: against a melee mob he will use his bow and movement, and against a range mob he will use his movement to reach it close.
So, idiot or lazy players will tel than hybrid are bad, they prefer telling this that learning how to play them well.

I can thing of two ways to balance out the hybrid classes:
1. Give them unique abilities that pure classes don't get. For example, in MM3 Druids and Rangers get spells that the pure casters don't; notably this includes Walk on Water. (With that said, I'm not sure if a spell like Walk on Water should be so restricted, seeing as such spells can easily become essential, particularly with MM3 taking place on a bunch of islands separated by water.)
2. Give their abilities unique synergies. Baldur's Gate 2, as riddled with issues that game might have, does this well; every multi-class combination has at least one nice synergy (even oddball choices like Cleric/Thief).

I think World of Xeen did pretty well with the fighter/caster hybrids; they get all the spells of the pure casters, but only get half the SP. Where Xeen went bad is the handling of Druids (and Rangers); they don't get any of the high level spells (they're limited to spells that cost at most 10 SP or 2/level SP for scaling spells), and they lack Teleport, a spell that is *mandatory* in Clouds, even though that spell costs less than 10 SP. (Mandatory spells, if they exist, should be as widely available as possible to ensure the game can be reasonably beaten with as many parties as possible; you can't beat MM4 without a Sorcerer or Archer unless you either get a lucky find or you use the mirror to skip the final dungeon.)

I prefer the MMVI system except for the too powerful Druid and the early access to Lloyd's Beacon and Town Portal. Maybe limit the beacon to once a day use or force the Druid to declare a "School" that limits its elemental range. Having GM in basic Elemental Magic is too important to pick hybrids in MMVII (IMHO) setting up the need for Sorcerer/Cleric limitation that you noted.

I see how that would work in solo-character games, but in a game that has you move together as an amalgam of four different characters in a single unit, I don't see why a Ranger would help.

The tactics you described are the way to go, but why does the party need a Ranger to pull off a flexible strategy when you already have a mix of melee and ranged that works together in the same way? At range, it may shoot with the power of two or so range specialists (but not the power of four), and up close it fights with the power of two or so melee tanks (but not with the strength and durability of four). The party itself already moves and attacks like one conjoined super-hybrid.

I know that nobody's advocating for an all-Ranger party, but just to demonstrate a point, suppose that you had one. A party with four different more specialized classes would do just as good a job being flexible in how it fights as the Ranger party, AND be capable of far more powerful spells on top of that, thereby expanding it's tactical options even further.

But coming back to the topic of even including one Ranger in a party: Why are they an attractive pick when your group already contains a Paladin and an Archer, or a Knight and a Sorcerer, or some combination of specialists? The mix of classes already works together in a flexible way just as well. How does having a Ranger add anything to what a balanced party already accomplishes?

What you describe in World of Xeen sounds a lot like the tweak for MM7 I'm proposing. Of course, unlike World of Xeen there would be no missing spells. GM Water Magic is always GM Water Magic, period. I'm keeping my class-revamping idea within the parameters of what abilities already exist in MM7.

You had an interesting point about hybrid specific abilities though, especially when you realize that in MM8, they actually DID give hybrids unique magic skills!! Dark Elf is MM8's version of the Archer, and they gave them the "Dark Elf" skill with novice/exper/master/grandmaster level powers. Likewise the Vampire was effectively the new Paladin with the "Vampire" skill and it's own N/E/M/GM powers. It certainly DOES make MM8s hybrids a lot more attractive, so I guess you're right on the money with that realization.

Yes, rangers are often badly done, but the world too, moreover that there is magic. When the world is only combat, there is no need for a true ranger, as rangers are made to be able to go the farther and protecting himself by is own means in dangerous areas; and where there is teleportation or invisibility spells, etc, a magician begins to steal the ranger role.
"The farthest": it means the ranger is to go in nature, as natural areas are far bigger than town ones, so a rogue/thief may be more able in dungeons than a ranger. If a game has mainly dungeons, the ranger must be balanced to giving him stronger skills. Yes, that was a way to go, but it didn't sold the game for me, as I wanted to roleplay classes might&magic heroes and not monsters.

My answer: in this game, they aren't ever an attractive pick. The only reason to take a Ranger is either because you want to make the game a bit harder, or you want someone swinging an Axe at Grandmaster skill level. They can acquire nearly every skill in the game, but they simply aren't good enough at most of those skills to make investing skill points worthwhile, so they might as well not have the skill in the first place (Example: cap of Expert in Disarm Trap).

The only party skills where they aren't matched or beaten by at least three other classes are Id Monster, Stealing, and Perception. On the bright side, they also don't compete with other party members for equipment. No one else bothers with axes, and the Ranger can use either Leather or Chain effectively, so you can give them the one that is less used by other party members with fewer options.