Posted July 06, 2021
As i promised in patch topic, after finally getting a hands over working test version of Game, working under modified rules, i can proceed to writing some stuff bout it. Version itself is still require some more tests to ensure what everything work just as should, but its fairly safe to confirm that intended result is well achieved there. So, now into some explanations why Retreats in MOO2 are important enough to bother with writing about them, why they are bad the way they been done, and what is possible to do (and whats not) with them.
MOO2 is the game plagued with many gameplay issues. While patches did a good job in fixing "technical" (including interface ones) issues of it recently, "balance" ones are normally out of scope for them; mods do instead. Mods could reach a desire for better gameplay by adjusting many values in their relation: racial picks, weapon stats etc, they could make more strategies viable, even could do good for a problem of production / research imbalance, whare research cost is horribly overpriced in original game, while cost of ships-of-war is horribly underpriced (fun fact is that weak players usually somewhy tend to get it totally reversed way; they want research to cost even more, and seems to be scared to soil enrichment if they seen Command Points indicator goes red even slightly).
There is also another thing for possible change: game rules itself, and one of such change is to be discussed mainly further. Great examples of it is strict_combat_sequencing & interactive_combat_stats of Patch 1.50 — unlike the balance issues of values, ones that affect decisions mainly, they improve game process, namely interactivity. Of course its mostly takes two to know, as AI is very bad in this game. Most of issues fixed discussed here not affect AI, improving AI is a very promising thing of future. But even in game with AI MOO2 show one of its huge problem: low interactivity.
In this stuff its about strategic layer of game. Interactions between Attacking and Defending players lack much actual interaction; Attacking player have yuge proactivity, Defending player lack reactivity to apply. AI incapabilities is also very noticeable on this layer, but we're not about it here. Attacker have all the choice where and when to strike with a packed strike fleet. Defender could only occasionally meet it with own combined fleet, but usually have to take fight with only parts of it. And while those battles itself currently could be improved on tactical level by modding of weapon's values, or applying better battle rules, lack of interaction on strategic layer still remains.
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One of important factors, contributing to it is (finally) ]Retreats. Currently, in original game, the are basically free (for simplicity i will use more strictly-worded "free" later, tho, technically there is at least one case where they still do affect something). Player can retreat own ship if that ship is under threat, that will save it, just that ship wouldnt further contribute to battle, as if its dead. Deal is that its not. Small AI-related note: ofc AI is horrible with own retreats, it doesnt use ship-level retreats, only fleet-level ones, one or nothing, so its not really exploit main feature of retreat: to save selected ships currently under threat. So, strictly speaking, retreats are also another anti-AI exploit. But mainly its about player-to-player interaction here, as a whole, regardless of artificialness. Retreats are free in a sense they not bear much decision cost. Normally player retreat a ship, that would be dead anyway instead, so wouldnt be able to contribute anymore, so no loss caused. Possible cost there is in players's need to calculate risk; ofc retreating ship, that wouldnt be dead otherwise (say, due to player's miscalculation) its not a free action. Retreats are also free in sense of not affecting a retreated ship in question on a strategic layer: this ship is either will retreat with rest of defeated fleet, or will stay to participate in possible further actions of winner fleet.
Retreat on a ship level effectively put a ship into odd "pocket dimension" at will, where it is essentially safe and sound, with at worst it could have is to proceed to calm further retreat to own planet on a fleet level, even if fleet of that retreated ship is totally routed and decimated by superior enemy, and the ship in question is manage to escape to safety of retreat being barely mobile. Yet if fleet of retreated ship is victorious, that ship will rejoin it as if retreat never happens. Ship-level retreat affect fleet-level retreat only by lack of possible contribution in battle, but if overall fleet is strong enough, it means no consequences to fleet in question at all. Moreother, fleet-level retreats are something only losing side suffer anyway, so in short: Retreats are totally free for a Winner.
As only losers do suffer fleet-level retreats, and as ship-level ones not directly contribute to them, its not so good on strategic level. Above it was mentioned that Attacker already have upper hand versus Defender on strategic layer; Retreats add more to it. As Attacker have no cost in retreating own ships as long as he/she is winning, as they will either join other, remained, part of fleet to assault a planet or merely regroup to continue moving together from this star, Defender, who is usually very limited on resources, actually often cannot interfere with Attacker's fleet at all. Unless Defender can actually kill some incoming ship, most often battle is totally meaningless for him/her, severely damaging interactivity. Even if Defender have means to effectively force to retreat (but not kill) some (but not all) incoming ships, it equals to inability to do anything. As after battle will be eventually won by Attacker, all those ships will act as if none of them actually been in danger enough to retreat. It put some additional threshold on Defender's ability to act: it will require way more resources from him/her to do anything in comparison to Attacker, yet its Defender, who is limited on resources instead. In addition, while its not really symmetrical on strategic layer, its not in tactical one too (note: in Strategic Combat rules ship-level retreats are not exist, adding some twist to all of that stuff): in case Attacker could have ability to force some parts of defending fleet to retreat, while still have no power to actually win a battle (say, Defender do have undefeatable, yet relatively harmless ship), Attacker could use weakening of opposing fleet to inflict some damage to defending Planet prior to actually losing the battle and retreating on a fleet level. Yet for Defender there is no such option. If battle is not won outright, only possible direct kills do matter, and if they prevented by timely retreats, then nothing happens. Defender, who can repel, say, 10 Battleships, but still cant deal with remained couple of Frigate runners are equally (un)effective with one, who cannot deal even with just one autodesigned slow Scout: they lose a battle, and then whole combined Attacker's fleet participate in further assault. Thus Attacker fleet, that just big/powerful enough to overload a Defender ability to kill all its entirety, could win any number of battles versus Defender's fleets just below that threshold; unstoppable and without any losses. With each loss likely reducing Defending player resources even more, as each such loss is likely a Colony.
The power of Beams and other "instahit" weapons are in partial circumvent of that problem. Often its not that player cannot deal something to enemy ship at all; its that player cannot deal it to it timely enough. Slow-reaching weapons let their target to went to safety of their retreat "pocket dimension", while important immobile targets of them stay where they are, unable to evade similar slow-reaching weapons. And again, its Defender, who have such targets, not Attacker. While Beam-likes do change its slightly, real problem is in retreat mechanic.
MOO2 is the game plagued with many gameplay issues. While patches did a good job in fixing "technical" (including interface ones) issues of it recently, "balance" ones are normally out of scope for them; mods do instead. Mods could reach a desire for better gameplay by adjusting many values in their relation: racial picks, weapon stats etc, they could make more strategies viable, even could do good for a problem of production / research imbalance, whare research cost is horribly overpriced in original game, while cost of ships-of-war is horribly underpriced (fun fact is that weak players usually somewhy tend to get it totally reversed way; they want research to cost even more, and seems to be scared to soil enrichment if they seen Command Points indicator goes red even slightly).
There is also another thing for possible change: game rules itself, and one of such change is to be discussed mainly further. Great examples of it is strict_combat_sequencing & interactive_combat_stats of Patch 1.50 — unlike the balance issues of values, ones that affect decisions mainly, they improve game process, namely interactivity. Of course its mostly takes two to know, as AI is very bad in this game. Most of issues fixed discussed here not affect AI, improving AI is a very promising thing of future. But even in game with AI MOO2 show one of its huge problem: low interactivity.
In this stuff its about strategic layer of game. Interactions between Attacking and Defending players lack much actual interaction; Attacking player have yuge proactivity, Defending player lack reactivity to apply. AI incapabilities is also very noticeable on this layer, but we're not about it here. Attacker have all the choice where and when to strike with a packed strike fleet. Defender could only occasionally meet it with own combined fleet, but usually have to take fight with only parts of it. And while those battles itself currently could be improved on tactical level by modding of weapon's values, or applying better battle rules, lack of interaction on strategic layer still remains.
-
One of important factors, contributing to it is (finally) ]Retreats. Currently, in original game, the are basically free (for simplicity i will use more strictly-worded "free" later, tho, technically there is at least one case where they still do affect something). Player can retreat own ship if that ship is under threat, that will save it, just that ship wouldnt further contribute to battle, as if its dead. Deal is that its not. Small AI-related note: ofc AI is horrible with own retreats, it doesnt use ship-level retreats, only fleet-level ones, one or nothing, so its not really exploit main feature of retreat: to save selected ships currently under threat. So, strictly speaking, retreats are also another anti-AI exploit. But mainly its about player-to-player interaction here, as a whole, regardless of artificialness. Retreats are free in a sense they not bear much decision cost. Normally player retreat a ship, that would be dead anyway instead, so wouldnt be able to contribute anymore, so no loss caused. Possible cost there is in players's need to calculate risk; ofc retreating ship, that wouldnt be dead otherwise (say, due to player's miscalculation) its not a free action. Retreats are also free in sense of not affecting a retreated ship in question on a strategic layer: this ship is either will retreat with rest of defeated fleet, or will stay to participate in possible further actions of winner fleet.
Retreat on a ship level effectively put a ship into odd "pocket dimension" at will, where it is essentially safe and sound, with at worst it could have is to proceed to calm further retreat to own planet on a fleet level, even if fleet of that retreated ship is totally routed and decimated by superior enemy, and the ship in question is manage to escape to safety of retreat being barely mobile. Yet if fleet of retreated ship is victorious, that ship will rejoin it as if retreat never happens. Ship-level retreat affect fleet-level retreat only by lack of possible contribution in battle, but if overall fleet is strong enough, it means no consequences to fleet in question at all. Moreother, fleet-level retreats are something only losing side suffer anyway, so in short: Retreats are totally free for a Winner.
As only losers do suffer fleet-level retreats, and as ship-level ones not directly contribute to them, its not so good on strategic level. Above it was mentioned that Attacker already have upper hand versus Defender on strategic layer; Retreats add more to it. As Attacker have no cost in retreating own ships as long as he/she is winning, as they will either join other, remained, part of fleet to assault a planet or merely regroup to continue moving together from this star, Defender, who is usually very limited on resources, actually often cannot interfere with Attacker's fleet at all. Unless Defender can actually kill some incoming ship, most often battle is totally meaningless for him/her, severely damaging interactivity. Even if Defender have means to effectively force to retreat (but not kill) some (but not all) incoming ships, it equals to inability to do anything. As after battle will be eventually won by Attacker, all those ships will act as if none of them actually been in danger enough to retreat. It put some additional threshold on Defender's ability to act: it will require way more resources from him/her to do anything in comparison to Attacker, yet its Defender, who is limited on resources instead. In addition, while its not really symmetrical on strategic layer, its not in tactical one too (note: in Strategic Combat rules ship-level retreats are not exist, adding some twist to all of that stuff): in case Attacker could have ability to force some parts of defending fleet to retreat, while still have no power to actually win a battle (say, Defender do have undefeatable, yet relatively harmless ship), Attacker could use weakening of opposing fleet to inflict some damage to defending Planet prior to actually losing the battle and retreating on a fleet level. Yet for Defender there is no such option. If battle is not won outright, only possible direct kills do matter, and if they prevented by timely retreats, then nothing happens. Defender, who can repel, say, 10 Battleships, but still cant deal with remained couple of Frigate runners are equally (un)effective with one, who cannot deal even with just one autodesigned slow Scout: they lose a battle, and then whole combined Attacker's fleet participate in further assault. Thus Attacker fleet, that just big/powerful enough to overload a Defender ability to kill all its entirety, could win any number of battles versus Defender's fleets just below that threshold; unstoppable and without any losses. With each loss likely reducing Defending player resources even more, as each such loss is likely a Colony.
The power of Beams and other "instahit" weapons are in partial circumvent of that problem. Often its not that player cannot deal something to enemy ship at all; its that player cannot deal it to it timely enough. Slow-reaching weapons let their target to went to safety of their retreat "pocket dimension", while important immobile targets of them stay where they are, unable to evade similar slow-reaching weapons. And again, its Defender, who have such targets, not Attacker. While Beam-likes do change its slightly, real problem is in retreat mechanic.
Post edited September 18, 2022 by DarzaR