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So as I have mentioned previously it is my opinion that cost reduction is not being applied correctly so i'd like to ask how is this being calculated now and how was it being calculated previously?

The reason I ask is because every time I try to do the calculations I get an answer that is different from both the port and original so clearly I'm missing something more over i was going to build a calculator in excel so that i can double check the build time/cost for each unit and structure to see if there are anymore anomalies.

as for the current x2 and x4 speed, calculations while I take your point about the x2 and x4 algorithm in the original failing to speed up production as much as is possible, I have to wonder if that was in fact deliberate on the part of the original devs because although the math works as we can see below conceptually it just seems wrong for the build cost to increase after applying research that is supposed to make things cheaper.

Materials used per turn
x1 speed 2
x2 speed 8
x4 speed 24

Mine base cost after 10% reduction
x1 speed: base cost 22 materials, build time 11 turns (22/2=11)
x2 speed: base cost x 2 = 44 materials, build time 5.5 turns (44/8=5.5)
x4 speed: base cost x 3 = 66 materials, build time 2.75 turns (66/24=2.75)

x1 100% / 11 turns = 9.0909090909090909090909090909091% progress per turn
x2 100% / 5.5 turns = 18.181818181818181818181818181818% progress per turn
x4 100% / 2.75 turns = 36.363636363636363636363636363636% progress per turn

x2 speed

18.181818181818181818181818181818 x 5 = 90.90909090909090909090909090905% progress
9.0909090909090909090909090909091 x 1 = 9.0909090909090909090909090909091% progress

90.90 + 9.1 = 100%

5 turns at x2 speed at a cost of 40 materiels
1 turn at x1 speed at a cost of 2 materiels

build time 6 turns cost 42 materiels

x4 speed

36.363636363636363636363636363636 x 2 = 72.72727272727272727272727272726% progress
18.181818181818181818181818181818 x 1 = 18.181818181818181818181818181818% progress
9.0909090909090909090909090909091 x 1 = 9.0909090909090909090909090909091% progress

72.72 + 18.18 + 9.1 = 100%

2 turns at x4 speed 48 materiels
1 turn at x2 speed 8 materiels
1 turn at x1 speed 2 materiels

build time 4 turns cost 58 materiels
Post edited May 05, 2025 by Cursed-Ghost
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Cursed-Ghost: if you turn on [maxspy] and look to the south east of the green base on the radar screen you will see a lone green fighter chasing my air transport which i initially sent to capture the alien units to the south of the blue base until i noticed it was being followed as you will see my transport is well outside the visual range of the green computer yet even if i try making say a 90 degree turn to either the north of south in an effort to shake off the fighter and buy time for my alien plane to intercept the computers fighter still seems to be able to track my transport.
Please note that [maxspy] is working in both directions. Not only you will see the enemies. They will see you too and everyone else. So as long as you enabled that cheat even once in a particular game, all your units became immediately known to the enemies.

I still did not find the time to review the source code whether enemies forget your units when you leave their visual or scan range. I will continue with that topic as soon as I get to it.

Update: Apparently I was wrong. Only the all_visible ini setting reveals all units in both directions, the maxspy cheat code works differently. I will continue the code review using your save file.
Post edited May 07, 2025 by klei1984
Hi

so just came across another bazaar situation which should be impossible, since the computer is a cheat and can produce units even when the factory is supposed to be disabled / un-powered I decided to see what would happen if I just blocked the factory so even if the computer tries to create units from said factory they can't actuality leave the building but apparently the computer can spawn units on squares that should be impassable because they contain concrete blocks and spies that can't move due to the fact that there movement points are used up so evidently something is very broken

Here is a before and after image, notice the grey unit that spawned from the factory underneath a concrete block in the second image, if you destroy the concrete block you will find a bulldozer which shouldn't even exist since the generator is disabled for 3 turns and the factory is disable for 2 turns so it should be impossible to create units I've also had the gray bulldozer spawn on top of my spies although i don't have a screen shot of that.

https://i.postimg.cc/T3yRmB8Y/screen-shot-1.png
https://i.postimg.cc/hj0gcBmM/screen-shot-2.png

here is the save: https://www.hostize.com/v/hG9Z2UTy3j

Also while I'm thinking about it did you ever figure out what was causing units using the path function to become bugged upon reload of the auto save ?

Also did you figure out what the cause of that odd situation with the scan range is? The one where if you save with one of your units just barely in range of the enemy structure then reload that structure will be not be visible on reload and the only way to make it visible is to move also as an addendum to that I've noticed that if you shoot the structure then it only partly appears for example.

https://i.postimg.cc/j5vHNDNf/screen-shot-3.png

In this screen shot my bomber is just barely in range of the air plane and if I save and reload even though the air plant was visible when I saved it's not visible after reload and if I fire where the air plant is then it becomes partly visible as you can see in the screen shot

If you need me to do a save so you can further investigate just let me know.
Post edited May 09, 2025 by Cursed-Ghost
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Cursed-Ghost: so just came across another bazaar situation
Thanks for the save and for the investigations, its really valuable feedback. I will look into it.

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Cursed-Ghost: Also while I'm thinking about it did you ever figure out what was causing units using the path function to become bugged upon reload of the auto save ?

Also did you figure out what the cause of that odd situation with the scan range is? The one where if you save with one of your units just barely in range of the enemy structure then reload that structure will be not be visible on reload and the only way to make it visible is to move also as an addendum to that I've noticed that if you shoot the structure then it only partly appears for example.
Not yet :(

In the past 5 to 6 months all development effort went into replacing the original GNW engine which was developed by Tim Cain for Interplay back in the mid 90's. GNW is or was the engine behind Fallout 1, Fallout 2, M.A.X. 1, M.A.X. 2, Atomic Bomberman, and probably several other Interplay titles of the time. This work is required to support new maps, missions, campaigns, high DPI displays, decent hardware graphics rendering with high FPS on high resolutions, multiple languages with locale specific human inputs, custom key bindings, proper in-game menus to configure and use all these features and much more. But none of these will be ready any time soon. Maybe in a year or two. So i will take small breaks and will try to fix bugs too.
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Cursed-Ghost: so just came across another bazaar situation...
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klei1984: Thanks for the save and for the investigations, its really valuable feedback. I will look into it.
No problem.

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Cursed-Ghost: Also while I'm thinking about it did you ever figure out what was causing units using the path function to become bugged upon reload of the auto save ?

Also did you figure out what the cause of that odd situation with the scan range is? The one where if you save with one of your units just barely in range of the enemy structure then reload that structure will be not be visible on reload and the only way to make it visible is to move also as an addendum to that I've noticed that if you shoot the structure then it only partly appears for example.
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klei1984: Not yet :(

In the past 5 to 6 months all development effort went into replacing the original GNW engine which was developed by Tim Cain for Interplay back in the mid 90's. GNW is or was the engine behind Fallout 1, Fallout 2, M.A.X. 1, M.A.X. 2, Atomic Bomberman, and probably several other Interplay titles of the time. This work is required to support new maps, missions, campaigns, high DPI displays, decent hardware graphics rendering with high FPS on high resolutions, multiple languages with locale specific human inputs, custom key bindings, proper in-game menus to configure and use all these features and much more. But none of these will be ready any time soon. Maybe in a year or two. So i will take small breaks and will try to fix bugs too.
Oh wow that sound like a mammoth task although I can't help but wonder if it might not be smarter to fix bug first and switch out the game engine later in light of the fact that replacing the engine is most likely going to introduce its own bugs, because by working from a point where everything is stable and you know everything works as it should it becomes that much easier to hunt bugs down because when something doesn't work right, you know the issue must be in the section of code you changed since said broken thing worked just fine before if that makes sense, although I guess there are probably bugs and limitations that can only be fixed by replacing the engine with a more modern one.

Ok so just encountered more weirdness apparently the computer can build on top of its own units, as you can see in these screen shots somehow the green built a storage silo on top of one of there mobile anti aircraft units.

https://i.postimg.cc/02Fh1D7N/screenshot-1.png
https://i.postimg.cc/hGbYmY6J/screenshot-2.png

I only noticed this when I moved in to attack and my air craft got shot at by an unknown assailant in spite of the fact that the rest of the mobile anti aircraft units where unable to fire but when I attacked the storage silo the culprit was revealed as you can see in the second screen shot.

Not sure what's going on but if I had to hazard a guess it's most likely the same bug that allowed air transports to deploy units on to tiles that where already occupied, I'm guessing its also the same bug that allows computer factories to deploy units from factories even when there are no empty tiles to deploy to
Post edited May 10, 2025 by Cursed-Ghost
Howdie

So I was reading about the latest defect to be fixed defect 202 and it seems to me that this situation is a result of fault logic which brings me to my first question.

Why is construction blocked if the computer doesn't have at least 10 fuel reserves?

Not to put to fine a point on it but that is a stupid and badly though out requirement, a smarter way to go about this would be to first check if there is sufficient power to operate the requested structure if answer is yes build the structure, if the answer if no then check to see if stuff can be turned off if the answer is yes turn it off if no then request the construction of more power and run another check to see if you have sufficient fuel production/storage if the answer is yes build a power plant/generator if the answer is no check to see if allocation can be adjusted if yes then do so if no then request the construction of a mining station now of course this is where things would get complicated as you would need to step through several checks to determine if construction can go a head or is blocked.

First are there resources near by if no construction is blocked if yes request the construction of a mine and move to the next step

Next is there sufficient power to operate a mine if yes build the mine if no move to the next step

Are there any power sources that are not turned on due to insufficient fuel? If yes can allocation be adjusted to allow you to turn them on if yes build the mine adjust allocation and turn on the power if no move to the next step

If there are no inactive power sources check to see if anything can be turn off to meet the power requirement if yes build the mine and then turn off the low priority structures

If there are no inactive power sources and there is nothing that can be turned off check fuel production/storage to see if a new power source can be built if there is enough storage or allocation can be adjusted to support a new power source build a new power source build a mine

If there is insufficient fuel production/storage to build a new power source and allocation cant be adjusted and nothing can be turned off check to see if current production plus the extra production that would be generated by a new mine would be sufficient to allow a power source to be built and the mine to operate if yes build the power source build the mine adjust allocation as needed if no construction is blocked

Now I will grant you that this is a relatively crude example of a decision tree/flow chart but it should be sufficient to make the point that when you encounter issues like this the best thing would be to map out the decision tree so that you can visualise the flow that will then help in addressing faulty logic issues like this

And doing things this way would fix that faulty piece of logic and prevent construction being incorrectly blocked.

Which brings me to the next point why is the computer not able to sacrifice material and gold production to increase fuel production?

Again this seems like stupid and badly though out design which would be easer to see if you created a flow chart where you can map out the decision processes at each step.

I mean thinking about logically, it seems to me the correct course of action in this case should be to increase fuel production from 2 to 6 turn on the power plant turn off the generators as power plants should always be favoured over generators where sufficient fuel can be produced since they are more efficient and in so doing a situation like this would never occur in the first place.

As you would have sufficient power to operate the mine/light and heavy vehicle plants and as each factory only uses 3 materials per turn as long as you leave at least 6 materials in storage each turn you would be able to transfer the rest to engineers/constructors to enable construction and in a low resource situation the priority should always be to increase resources and therefore I would instruct the constructor to build another mine assuming there where resources that could be mined near by and assuming I had sufficient power to operate said mine.

which brings me to the third point in a situation where materials are being wasted every turn due to insufficient storage the priority should be to build more storage and in this case I would ignore planed storage and focus only on actual storage because by removing planed storage form the metrics and the running the check each turn the returned answer would be there is insufficient storage and therefore more storage would be constructed until the threshold is reached and again doing things this way would prevent this situation due to fault logic.

The other issue with considering planed storage in the metrics is there is no grantee that said storage would ever actually get built what if for example the constructor/engineer is destroyed, what if you run in to some other issue that prevents construction maybe enemy units are to close to the proposed construction site for example resulting in construction being blocked due to the threat level being to high etc.

Finally the last point seems to simplistic to me and actually this should operate the way a player would and therefore if the factories cant be turned on due to insufficient energy and the power cant be turned on due to insufficient fuel then gold production and material production should be sacrificed to increase fuel production while this would slow production its better than it being halted altogether and its better then having all those materials wasted every turn.

As a player my first priority is always to keep my base fully operational so that I can turn on factories and construct structures as required, and as such my allocation is always set with this in mind so although I usually end up making more fuel and power then what I actually need that's ok because a bit of redundancy is a good thing because if something gets blown up it doesn't shut down production, its also why I interconnect things the way that I do as it prevents shut down in the event of attack as the power and resources will simply be rerouted
Post edited May 17, 2025 by Cursed-Ghost
Ok so encountered another crash to desktop this time it occurs when reloading during the computers turn.

On occasion I'll accidentally end my turn prematurely if for example I accidentally hit the enter key by mistake and thus I'll either go into the menu and reload or I'll do a quick reload by taping Alt + L and enter

However this will frequently although not always cause a crash to desktop, not sure what causes it but I suspect the fault lies in the fact that reloading the game during the computers turn prematurely terminates tasks that the computer is performing and as a consequence the game crashes upon reload as the game fails to close any open tasks before trying to reinitialise the games previous state.

Although it could also have something to do with the fact that projectiles are as you explain in defect 228 considered by the game to be units that get move orders and just as strange things can happen if you save while projectiles are flying around perhaps similar strange things can happen if you try to reload while projectiles are flying around which can result in an intermittent albeit frequent crash to desktop.

[edit]

Ok so ran into another issue the reports window isn’t working right and will close without hitting the done button under various circumstances.

for example when scrolling the window by pressing the arrow buttons, when trying to check or uncheck the various tick boxes, also if you go the messages page and press the various check boxes the message nearest the check box will be selected and then when you press the check box for a second time the window will be incorrectly closed.

As far as I'm aware there are only 2 ways the reports window should close hitting the done button or double clicking on a given entry which will then jump the window to the relevant location where the unit is or where the event took place.

Which brings me to the next issue, on the units page the selection area isn’t the full width of the line so if you click on the image or name of the unit nothing happens, same thing if you double click on the image or name of the unit to jump to that units location nothing happens, this is counter intuitive and it shouldn't matter where on the line I click the full line should be selected and similarly it shouldn’t matter where on the line I double click the window should close and the screen should jump to the location of said unit.

This next one isn’t a bug so much as it is flawed implementation, I notice when docking aircraft to a hanger they always fly to the top left corner before they dock this wastes movement points when entering and exiting the hanger therefore I would recommend that the entry point for the hanger should be the same size as the hanger aka a 2x2 grid so that aircraft will dock as soon as they reach the visible the edge of the hanger.

I'd also make this change for the depot, dock and barracks as well because I have noticed that when you use the load function from the depot, dock and barracks the unit will move to the top left corner before docking and disappearing from the screen which again wastes movement points therefore as with the hanger units should dock as soon they reach the visual edge of the depot, dock or barracks, now of course you can manually move the unit to the edge of the depot, dock or barracks before having them dock to prevent movement points from being wasted but having to micro management like this to avoid flawed implementation is a real pain.

[edit]

I also notice when planes take off from an air plant they appear in the top left of the air plant and then move to the location around the air plant the player selects however this also incorrectly costs movement points, a newly built unit should appear at the designated spawn point with full movement points.

While this particular piece of flawed implementation is most obvious for air units it also affects all your other unit production structures as well so this should also be fixed for them to.

Just noticed what appears to be another glitch it seems that movement points used are not being calculated consistently. I have 2 alien gun boats and I move the first one diagonally up and right one tile and it uses 1 movement point I do the same with the second alien gun boat and it uses 2 movement points as you can see in the following screenshots and it not just alien gunboats this happens to now while this may not be a big deal it is annoying especially since alien units can't upgrade there movement point.

https://i.postimg.cc/sgrfDQvt/screenshot-1.png
https://i.postimg.cc/Ls4HLckD/screenshot-2.png
https://i.postimg.cc/3RdYb2cD/screenshot-3.png
https://i.postimg.cc/FFSQdF5m/screenshot-4.png

I've also observed 2 oddities with the group movement, first off I have 4 engineers I select all 4 and tell them to move 4 tiles to the left and only the first 2 move as you can see in these screen shots

https://i.postimg.cc/ZYp1Yfp5/screenshot-5.png
https://i.postimg.cc/KvbC1nDr/screenshot-6.png

Just above them I have 4 constructors again I select all 4 and tell them to move 4 tiles to the left however this time I get the error message path blocked and none of the constructors move what is more troubling however is the fact the second constructor becomes frozen and unresponsive in the unit window it says moving but I'm unable to order the unit to do anything, it wont move and I can't order it to build either as the menu that usually pops up when you double click a builder wont open as the unit is locked in a moving state, as far as I'm aware the only way to recover from this is to reload.

Now to answer what will undoubtedly be your first question all the constructors have full movement points so the error message path blocked is erroneous and shouldn't be happening.

I've attached a save where you can observe all 3 of these issues for your self.

https://www.hostize.com/v/FpioYXyfKX
Post edited May 22, 2025 by Cursed-Ghost
Ok so giving 7.2 a look and just encountered the first issue.

I'm getting a persistent crash to desktop every time my constructor tries to exit the build site I've attached a save

https://filebin.net/i17ezj8x7fc0tw3f/SAVE9.zip

If you load the save and look to the north you will see a mine that is ready for deployment but every time the constructor tries to leave the build site the game crashes.

Also I notice that the computer is still able to see my units/structures when it shouldn’t be able to because they are well beyond the computers range of sight, so any idea how this is still happening even when the hacks that where added in 1.4 are supposed to be disabled?

I ask because it's leading to a lot of really irritating behavior by the computer like being ganked and killed constantly withing the first few turns because the computer knows where my base is as soon as i start the game and it can track my units even when they should be concealed by the fog of war, which of course make it pretty difficult to get anything done when the computer can see my builders / surveyors etc and keeps going after them.
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Cursed-Ghost: Ok so giving 7.2 a look and just encountered the first issue.

I'm getting a persistent crash to desktop every time my constructor tries to exit the build site I've attached a save

https://filebin.net/i17ezj8x7fc0tw3f/SAVE9.zip

If you load the save and look to the north you will see a mine that is ready for deployment but every time the constructor tries to leave the build site the game crashes.

Also I notice that the computer is still able to see my units/structures when it shouldn’t be able to because they are well beyond the computers range of sight, so any idea how this is still happening even when the hacks that where added in 1.4 are supposed to be disabled?

I ask because it's leading to a lot of really irritating behavior by the computer like being ganked and killed constantly withing the first few turns because the computer knows where my base is as soon as i start the game and it can track my units even when they should be concealed by the fog of war, which of course make it pretty difficult to get anything done when the computer can see my builders / surveyors etc and keeps going after them.
Hello,

The crash in the save file is caused by a TaskKillUnit task that computers initiate when they spot your newly built unit(s). The issue was reported by others for earlier versions too. It is a long standing architectural issue of the original game. We know the root cause, but do not know how to fix it. All previous attempts failed by causing even bigger problems. The issue is triggered when a game is loaded and enemy computers did not take their turns yet at least once and the player's activities force an early inline initialization of a computer player in the middle of the player's turn. Basically this is concurrent access to game state and control flow in forbidden ways, but with the current architectural design this is inevitable. Under MS-DOS the same issue happens, but memory corruptions rarely cause crashes under MS-DOS as that OS just lets the corruption spread uncontrollably.

The workaround to progress further with such save files is to let one turn of computers pass without activating new units right after loading the save file. In other words, wait one turn and activate your constructors in the second turn after a load when such a crash happens.

With respect to the spying computers, unfortunately we could not figure out anything on this issue since we last spoke about it :(
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klei1984: With respect to the spying computers, unfortunately we could not figure out anything on this issue since we last spoke about it :(
Humm… that’s unfortunate because it's like playing against 3 opponents that are all using the [max spy] cheat which is making things way more difficulty than it should be.

I guess for now till this is resolved I'll just have to continue to use a combination of [max spy] and [max super] to deter the computers sneak attacks at least till I get defences established.

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klei1984: The crash in the save file is caused by a TaskKillUnit task that computers initiate when they spot your newly built unit(s).
I see so quick question how exactly does the player's activities force an early inline initialization of a computer player in the middle of the player's turn?

I ask because for me this occurred upon the start of turn 13 and at that point I hadn't even done anything yet, and I'm just wondering if there is a specific player action that causes this or if this happens completely at random and there is no way to avoid it other then keeping multiple save files so when something like this occurs you can just reload an earlier save or do as you suggested and simply wait a turn before activating the structure.

Also did you figure out why the game crashes if you try reloading during the computers turn?
Post edited June 30, 2025 by Cursed-Ghost
Ok so just encountered another couple of issues.

First off the disable status is still being removed prematurely if I disable a structure for 1 turn on turn 50 then end turn the disabled status is removed immediately however this is incorrect behaviour the disable status should remain in effect until turn 51 begins.

Reproducing this one isn't hard just have one of your spies disable an enemy structure end your turn and then click on the disable structure once that teams turn begins and you will see the structure is no longer disabled.

So in my case I disable one of the grey teams structures for 1 turn end my turn wait for the grey teams turn to begin and then click on the structure that previously disabled and the window should read disable for 1 turn except it doesn't it reads awaiting which is clearly wrong.

it should also be noted that if you select the disabled structure end turn and wait until the next turn begins you will see that the window will continue to incorrectly indicate that the structure is still disabled when it isn't well until the next turn begins that is at which time the status in the window will be updated however if you select something else and then click back on the disabled structure before the teams turn ends you will see that the disabled status disappears.

So it seems there are a couple of things not working right here the status in the window is not being updated correctly and the disabled status is being incorrectly removed before it should be.

The second issue is that some how the grey computer is building units from its light vehicle plant which is disabled for 2 turns and has no power to operate because the computer only has 1 generator and that is also disabled for 3 turns therefore the grey computer should be incapable of building units.

Now unless I'm mistaken wasn’t this supposed to of been fixed already?

I've attached a save https://filebin.net/b0xegtn7p54xozgh/SAVE41.zip
Post edited 5 days ago by Cursed-Ghost
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Cursed-Ghost: I see so quick question how exactly does the player's activities force an early inline initialization of a computer player in the middle of the player's turn?
Every game tick, roughly 24 times per second, the game logic checks whether any unit reactions are pending. In your case when you activate the new unit from the factory it is visible to at least one enemy military unit, so it reacts. The reaction triggers the generation of a damage potential map which requires a threat map which is a very complex algorithm that requires in-depth knowledge about the team that is at risk -> the computer team that did not take at least one turn since game (re)load.

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Cursed-Ghost: Also did you figure out why the game crashes if you try reloading during the computers turn?
It is a similar topic. I know the root cause, but do not know how to prevent it. On exiting a game the central task manager removes all unit tasks. On-remove tasks execute various actions and some of these act upon other tasks in unexpected ways. I do not remember what happens exactly, enough to say that I found no workaround.

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Cursed-Ghost: First off the disable status is still being removed prematurely if I disable a structure for 1 turn on turn 50 then end turn the disabled status is removed immediately
1 turn means the current turn. In turn based mode, that turn is your turn where computers are prevented from reactions. It is easy to very the behavior in hot-seat mode. A disabled factory does not lose its production progress, but it is stalled by 1 turn. This is original behavior. E.g. when player B finishes its turn, turn 100, the factory is ON and clicking on the factory says 4 turns till completion. Then player A disables the factory for 1 turn in turn 101. Then player B takes its turn, turn 101 and the factory is disabled, but could be reactivated. After reactivation clicking on the factory says 4 turns till completion -> 1 turn stall. Exactly as long as the factory was disabled for -> 1 turn. Same should happen with computers.

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Cursed-Ghost: if you select the disabled structure end turn and wait until the next turn begins you will see that the window will continue to incorrectly indicate that the structure is still disabled when it isn't
I noted this down, but the graphics user interface is retained mode, not immediate mode. This means that either the status screen is updated at well defined "time points" like now or after any event that could affect a unit. As there is no event callback mechanism, and there should not be one as that is an overkill, the only sane solution is to switch to an immediate mode GUI library which is planned.

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Cursed-Ghost: The second issue is that some how the grey computer is building units from its light vehicle
This is on my to do list to look into.

Thanks for the save file!