It is painfully obvious, what went... well, if not wrong, then I would say... amiss.

No German side campaign (not even as an expansion - why the heck not? - given all the circumstances, that would actually suit the KotS style better).

And practically no allied planes to support you or the entire war effort... (Amiga version had something circling around the airfield, but nothing more).

No wonder the Red Baron was received much better, as it had both of these omissions rectified (though there were many other features missing - it had the Zeppelins, though) and I always felt, that Red Baron II/3D was as much KotS II as it was RB II (similarities between RB II and KotS are difficult to ignore - now, they are logical, given the same topic being covered, but anyway).

Ok, just random thinking out loud to fill this board... :-)

Well there has to be the better title, if KotS would have the same features as Red Baron they would be clones. :^)
Also, Microprose was putting out flightsim after flightsim in those days, some of which were very good while others were lacking.

In the game's manual's Designer Notes section, Jeff Briggs explains they didn't have the time and much less ressource to inclue a German campaign. They didn't want to simply mirror the French/English one.

There are lot of allied planes supporting you, but sadly, the Steam version (and I assume, the GOG version), published by Retroism, isn't the patched to Ver.2 one! That “little” patch introduced allied patrols(!), amongst other things, bringing the field to life and giving you much needed support. You can find the patch at the Patches Scrolls (http://www.patches-scroll.de). Why this version of the game isn't patched is beyond understanding.

To me, although it lacks the weather effects and the flight model of Red Baron, Knights of the Sky is much more atmospheric and overall my favourite game of the two. It combines perfectly arcade and simulation (I love how distinctive every planes are, however irrealistic that sometimes may be) and evokes neatly the romanced view of the period (in the same way that Microprose did before with Pirates, if you wish).

Got the game today and just want to tell that
I think Rev 2 is already included in the latest installer.
There is a READ.ME of the "Rev 2 patch installer" in the game directory.
I have also encoutered allied planes fighting germans in the skies.
So, it looks like there is no reason to search for the patch.

Maybe we're talking about different games but the flight model in my Red baron outright sucks!
I miss ... well, gravity! At 90 degree bank angle the planes nose doesn't drop to the ground noteworthy. Even if you fly completely inverted, you can glue your gunsight to the horizon with a slight push and continue flying hands free!
Usually in a dogfight, when you're rolling hard you can just let gravity do its work to get a lower flying enemy under the crosshair ... not so in Red Baron. You have to roll on your back and pull the stick, resulting in massive turn rate loss.
This feels so unnatural ... I can't stand this "Expert Flight Model". It keeps me away from diving deeper into that so much praised game.

When when you roll in Knights of the Sky, the plane slips and drops as to be expected.
I just tried the Fokker Dr.1 in X-Plane 11 for a direct comparison ... well, of course you can not really compare both simulations but KotS is much closer to this, than RB.


For me, Knights of the Sky is a much better flight simulation!

Centrifugal force is a thing when performing a tight turn, you know.

And once you discover the rudder you'll find flying to be much, much easier.

Well, centrifugal force has nothing to do with it, imho.

If you fly straight all lift forces produced by your wings is directed upward. If you keep the same speed and trim the plane, your nose stays on the same angle of attack and your altitude does not change.
Now: If you roll, lets say gentle 20 degrees, to one side, the lift produced by your wings isn't directed upward only, but sideways, too. The fraction of force directed sideways is missing form the upward force now. The plane starts descending. Since the center of mass is in front of the center of lift, the planes nose drops. Furthermore the plane starts turning, from the part of your lift that goes sideways.
There is no rudder involved in this.

Not that I didn't have discovered the rudder yet ...
... but the rudder alone isn't really meant to fly a turn. It's more for "fine tuning", for coordinated turns. It is also important to counter engine torque as well as counter crosswinds on landing.

But don't get me wrong:
I don't want to make Red Baron a bad game. Most flight sims of the 80s and early 90s shared exactly the same flaws in flight modelling. Some don't even have the rudder simulated. Everything is heavily simplified.

I primary wanted to express my joy about how well Knights of the Sky respects the details I wrote about on top. It feels much more natural. The plane acts more like you'd expect, when coming back from more modern flight sims.

If you are rolling on to your back to take aim at a lower enemy, then you haven't worked out the rudder- it's as simple as that. You can get through the entire war and never have to roll over like that to draw a bead on an enemy -if you use the rudder properly.

And I'm not talking about gentle 20 degree banks either, I'm talking middle of a dogfight, life or death 90 degree joystick into your stomach turns, where you can be side on to the horizon and still be forced down into your seat by the centrifugal force. Of course you lose height doing this- you can see it right there on the altimeter. But the nose isn't going to drop like a stone just because you're not perfectly level. If ALL the wing's lift was needed just to stay straight and level, then there'd be no lift left over to be able to climb. At all.

It's also worth noting that if you fly early war fighters like the Bullet and Eindekker, you get exactly what you're describing with the falling nose, because they're so underpowered that they really do struggle to stay straight and level, and banking takes away from that tiny pool of lift available. But later fighters have more power and better trim to avoid that.

The most efficient way to turn while maintaining height is a 45 degree bank, crosshair on the horizon, and a combination of upward stick and rudder toward your turn. It is NOT just for fine aiming: you should be using your rudder in every manoeuvre you make. Hell, in real life some pilots are skilled enough to fly on their sides almost totally maintaining altitude using *just* the rudder. And when they do, the nose sure as anything isn't pointing downwards.

If you find joy in the physics of Knights of the Sky, that's great. If you prefer it to Red Baron's physics, that's perfectly fine too. Red Baron's physics aren't 100% realistic, as anyone will tell you. But the flight model doesn't 'suck' in the way you think it does.