I finally managed to put my hands on GD+AoM addon, and I must confess, with somewhat sorry heart, that this game won't live long on my hard drive.

I sincerely wanted to like and love this game, as much as I like and love its direct predecessor (Titan Quest) and other ARPG (Diablo-clones, if you like, though I don't like the word clones much) such as Diablo/Diablo 2, Loki, Harbinger, Hellgate London, Divine Divinity/Beyond Divinity, Dungeon Siege 1-2, Inquisitor, Revenant, Sacred 1-2, Torchlight 1-2 (I don't like 'em but let 'em be here for collection purpose).

But I can't

First of all, I had to set 1024*768 on my monitor (1280*1024 regularly) just to can comfortably operate with Inventory menu, Skill menu and so on. Then, I had to tinker with other video settings, to get rid of annoying "modern" eye-poisoning stuff. Finally I got the OK rendering to start playing.

And now, I see that Crate guys tried to make something original, tried really hard, with heart and brains and soul visible, with all this steampunk dystopian apocalyptic setting, this lore, sullen ruined locations of Cairn, rusty scrap-made items in Inventory, and much more, and so on...

And all of this should be the big YEA and PLUS for this game but instead (maybe, just for me?) it turned into the big NAY and MINUS.

Lore and plot look somewhat untidy, eclectic and erratic, locations names and magic item names are messy and unremarkable, items in stores and in loot look undistinguishable (even in 1024*768) and I feel no passion to tinker with my belongings, trying to find something better (and such a tinkering is 50% of playtime in diabloids - and 50% of fun, isn't it?).

Skill system seem to be very unbalanced, skills and their effects seem boring and unneeded for playthrough, especially for Normal difficulty where I hardly could remember where is my R button ('cause I had no need in healing almost ever). Constellation system so wished to be new and fresh and original but it adds nothing valuable and really memorable.

Monsters and quests are cliched and many times seen before (I know, it's not a bgi thing for a diabloid, but still).

And though mechanically the gameplay is smooth and relaxing, and should satisfy, all these aforementioned factors prevent me from enjoying this game. Titan Quest as a closest brother, looks and plays and feels WAAAY better (even with this abominable, illogical Ragnarok, so unfitting to its game world).

Yes, I know, I still haven't finished even Act I, but I doubt that I can find strength in me to urge myself to do it :)

US scale - I remember there being UI scale option in graphics.

Act 1 can be finished around level 10 (there is an achievement for <10, pretty easy), and levelcap is 100...
GD continues tradition of items and enemies being tied to player level, you wouldn't see cool enemies until like 20+ level, legendary items require level 50 minimum to drop.
First act contains like 5 shrines, not enough to get any minor constellation, not even talking about major like Kraken or endgame 55 devotion builds.

Your post sounds like "I haven't cleared den of evil yet, but loot seems too bad for my taste, so I'm dropping the game".

You seemly just haven't gripped what my post is about

Man, seems we play two different games. I'm now 11 Level, and I am still in Burrwitch village. I don't care a **** for "achievements" or any similar schoolboys' stuff. I play for my pleasure, and I get no pleasure yet while playing this game - that's what my post is about.

This game feels boring, messy and uninspiring right from the start - that's what my post is about.

Why shall I "open" all the Constellation, when its full effect I can see and evaluate simply pointing my cursor over every star in it? The very concept of Constellations seems made just for 'originality' sake, stars effects are primitive and vapid.

One gets too much Health, Damage and other numeric values (just as it is in horrendous Diablo 3), and too soon, it inevitably makes all these numbers uninteresting and 'empty'.

And I don't need to complete the game to see screenshots over the Internet that show me the same boring locations same color and patterns through all the game, I don't need to complete the game to go and tinker with Grim Dawn Skill Calculator - and to see how boring and useless the skill system is.

I've mentioned 'ARPG fan' in the thread title for purpose. I played many diabloids and I can evaluate does a game have 'that feeling'or not without having completed its Den of Evil analogue :)

It's just a kinda sad post, 'cause I sincerely tried to like this game but it obviously lacks many features that a good diabloid should have (for my taste, of course). And it's doubly strange because guys that made Grim Dawn had made Titan Quest before. And they've lost something on this way.

I absolutely got it. Act I is a long tutorial, and you feel like tutorial is boring. And you wrote 2 pages long rant that tutorial weapons are uninspiring, skill balance in tutorial is a mess and minmaxing mechanics are redundant.

Well, so it means I don't like diabloids with such 'tutorial'. Diablo or Diablo 2 grip you from the start, Titan Quest grips from the start, even Loki grips you from the start, all these games are interesting right from the first location, their items and skills hook your interest from the very beginning.

And this only reaffirms that I said earlier - Crate guys have missed too far with design of GD.

It's just your opinion, man©
If you don't like Act I, you actually can skip it by repairing bridge to the left.

Yeah the first 'act' is kinda bland whatever way you look at it. I found the first parts of Diablo III way more uninspiring though. Still, in both cases, the zombie-gothic setting is getting old. In Diablo II it has a roughness and air of gloomy mystery about it that's both simpler and more efficient. Devil Crossing is a bit bland too as choices and dialogues are expected and black and white.

It gets better afterwards though! (I've just finished the base game, going on to play AoM areas).

Story is still a bit lacking focus-wise, but there are points that definitely shape things up - Act 2 makes things more brutal and Act 3 has a very interesting town to me. But as in Titan Quest, key characters are not memorable enough (more playable sections with them would be a good thing) to anchor the world/stakes if you don't dig a little.

Have you ticked the 'Veteran' modifier? It definitely helps as it's both punchier and more interesting to play right from the start - this way various gameplay elements quickly become more important, and thus coherent and logical.

Variety is good later on too; also, going back to Act 1 may be more pleasant after a while, at first there are inaccessible sections that are worth the challenge when you're ready and deviate from the 'zombie town' feel.

As to the aesthetic samey-ness, I think it fits the decayed, ruined world but I like it as much for what it is as by contrast with other games that go for WOW effects 100% of the time. It's risky and I've read other people not liking it. Probably an 'either/or' case.

What I'm trying to say is that it may be worth playing a bit more to see if it comes together for you (mainly by the middle of the second act (with the Rovers camp) or the Act III, at Homestead, the best area to me, both in setting and because the gameplay will challenge your build!)

Ah and yes, the Constellation thing is rich in possibilities but lacking in execution. I hope they will clarify it visually (simply adding clearly defined sections on top of colors should help).

(currently trying Harbinger and Loki by the way, they're err, let's say they should have been left in the oven longer but they do have some qualities. And to me Hellgate London had exactly the effect you describe about GD (worse actually), but with the fan-made mods (Revival) and some perseverance, it has become one of my favorite HnS!)

Thanks for an elaborate answer and detailed point of view.

Yes, I guess I maybe played GD too little to make a full-fledged conclusions but... it just doesn't hook me. At all. I don't know why it doesn't because it should :)

But in 25 years of my gaming career I got some subconscious criteria to know whether a game is for me or not, and to know it right from the beginning. And the very 'need' to play GD up to Act 2 or 3 to catch its hypothetical goodness is a right sign to me that we won't be friends with this game.

Other games I mentioned hooked me from the first location, the first fight, the first loot, the first level-up.

Harbinger is an odd arcade-style thing, no skill trees, no multitude of items - but it's SO charming, with its sprite graphics, with its brilliant atmospheric soundtrack, maybe even with its plot (there's no more adequate sci-fi Diablo clones around: Space Siege, Space Hack, Restricted Area all are not good to say it mildly, and Drox Operative takes place in space itself, not on surface, and thus has rather different gameplay).

Loki (that I began to play, in which time already? after having GD uninstalled) is bugged as Hell but also charming as Hell. Yes, most skills are bugged and almost useless, but the very 'devotion system' is genial IMO (there's no more crap loot, you just offer everything to your Gods, getting divine XP for it).
The very loot-drop system is genial and comfortable, you get everything in tidy little shining purses, and the color of this shining (and even the sound with which this purse drops from monster!) shows you the quality of what you find inside. And every time the blue purse drops, I just can't resist of exclaiming contentedly "Aha!" :)
The endless inventory, the way you take on and take off the items, just clicking on 'em (the abscence of 'character doll') I strangely find very comfortable too. 'Kiosk' system is brilliant too. Just nothing distracts you from very cunning and tactical fighting against real HORDES of monsters crammed in square-formed locations :)

By the way, you've mentioned Revival mod for H:L. I stumbled on this mod a month or two ago, was excited but couldn't clearly get what exactly it adds to the game, and couldn't install it properly, my H:L just didn't start at all after :)
Is it really so good?

You're right Noktouros, nothing really hook me in Grim Dawn, however it's my prefered h&s.
I can't say why, maybe for if there is no part really goodly, there is too none bad, but the devs succeeded in marying very well all these average parts.

But nevertheless it's your preferred H-n-S :) How strange, don't you find? :)

I guess I can understand you here, I mentioned earlier that gameplay (the very process of killing monsters) is smooth, flowing and really should be enjoyable. Because there's no really BAD part in it. But it is not enjoyable, maybe just because there's no really GOOD part in it. Everything is just OK.

Not strange for me: all others h&s have something bad which has made me to quit the game.
At now I still didn't left GD.

The more heartbreaking for me was Sacred2.
https://www.gog.com/forum/sacred_series/sacred_2_mods/post8
I should too prefer PoExile, but it's crafting system is too complicated for nothing, the game is elitist.

Well, I don't play both Sacreds much, they seemed quirky and inconsistent to me.

PoE I haven't played at all, because it's online-only, and I play games on my secret old-school PC with no Internet connection :)

And you think Grim Dawn is still better than Titan Quest? (I mean, TQ without this terrible Ragnarok)

It seems though that in ARPG department the situation is similar to that in TBS department: Diablo 1-2, being the epitome and paradigm of hack-n-slashy RPG-light gameplay, is still unsurpassed (unsurpassable?) just like Master of Magic/Master of Orion (1 or 2 depending of one's taste).

I like Ragnarok for it integered the TQ fanpatch...
Maybe I prefer GD for it doesn't need a fanpatch.

However, we're though, used to luxury: all these games are dream.
I really didn't know I could play such games one day (I'm about 50' old).

I don't like Ragnarok because it exploits this Viking-theme that seems to have pestered everything around, and Viking stuff doesn't fit into Titan world, IMO.

Ha-ha, I'm turning 42 this year :) Well, I wouldn't say I am spoiled with modern games just because I play the OLD games almost exclusively, be it RPG or TBS or RTS. I don't like modern graphics (especually modern 3D), I don't play multiplayer or online at all. And I wouldn't say games like GD resembles my dream-game in any possible detail :).

But you're right at one point at least: there are too many games now. It affects the quality.

So much for GD then!

I totally agree about Harbinger and Loki, these are their strong points. The overall sound work in Loki is great (anytime I hear my barbarian shouting, I almost feel sorry for the enemies o_o - and my ears on earphones ^^').

Lately Blade & Sword and Silverfall (+addon) are worth a look (the first I've just begun playing but its combo system and setting (old Three Kingdoms China) are neat; the second suffers from bland map design and odd controls but the game systems and lore are cool).

As to HL, Revival makes the game feel more rewarding than vanilla by adding many things from the multiplayer part back into the singleplayer experience (objects, monsters...) - and with it a need to pay more attention to your options. It's also possible (advised, if I'm not mistaken) to unlock the Elite mode (similar to Veteran in GD) by default, and to customize the mod at installation with various tweaks and cheats. The 'base' version is Revival 1.5b2 (http://www.hellgateaus.info/forum/hellgate-london-modification-downloads/revival-1-5b2-sp-modification/). But as you know the game, you're better off trying Unofficial Revival, which is the continuation by another modder, integrating as much content as possible (while balancing everything - oh and the whole mod series doesn't change the basic gameplay, it's like content/restoration addons in many ways). The last version should be 4.0 (coming soon, from what I'm reading right now).

Both mods rely on the Launcher 1.5b1, which is the mod manager for this game (along with 1.2.1, which is older and not used anymore?). You need to follow the mod instructions closely - the game data needs to be 'extracted' thanks to two simple but essential tricks, which can easily derail the whole modding otherwise. Check these two posts, they contain the right info (and this website has everything you need), or any mod's first post:

http://www.hellgateaus.info/forum/hellgate-london-modification-downloads/revival-1-5b2-sp-modification/

http://www.hellgateaus.info/forum/hellgate-london-modification-downloads/unofficial-revival-sp-modification-3-9/

I've also tried Nagahaku Optionals and Lost London a bit, I'm not too fond of the first one (it's neat for tweaks and heavy action, but a bit too much to me), but the second one is great, with a slightly different feel and focus.

Edit: links.