This is a question i've been asking myself ever since i got the hang of this game, why is the game fun? graphics are....OK, music is simply "fine", gameplay (especially in the beginning) should, by all accounts, make the average, everyday player curse the day he wasted the money on it yet the game is still...fun.

WHY?!?!

My only experience with Gothic was Gothic 3 before i bought Gothic and Gothic 2 off of GOG last week, i wasn't sure if i'ld even like the games, but despite Gothic 3 having so many bugs and system requirements that made little to no sense (simply put, i can run Oblivion at max settings with AA turned off and at 1680 x 1050 resolution, yet Gothic 3 i have to tune down the settings and it still runs kinda sloppish on my desktop PC) i kinda always favored Gothic 3 over Oblivion simply because it was more DIVERSE.

So right into Gothic i go, amazed at how much of a weakling my character was at the start, so weak that he could get pwned by a silly Scavenger or a peasant. Many frustrations later and getting to the point of almost rage quitting, i finally got to the point of being able to survive most fights unless i went out of my way to specifically look for trouble (i'm looking at your Snappers -_- ). The game does very little, if anything at all, to guide the player, the map which you eventually buy (or steal) is useful in only the most basic sense of the word because there's never a helpful icon or arrow pointing you to important places or a quest goal. This problem also turns up in some areas, i particularly spent like half an hour wandering around the Orc Cemetery before i gave up and googled a walkthrough only to find that i was suppossed to operate a button on the wall which took me another mins to actually locate in-game.

Yet for all the nitpickings, this is a fun game but i can't quite figure out WHY...

For me it was always the atmosphere. Piranha Bytes seem to really understand how to make the game world feel alive. The characters are diverse, and have realistic ambitions. Also, the beginning of the game, when the player character is a weakling really made me learn the ins and outs of the game world. The study involved with animals and the constant puzzlement regarding quests and whether the enemy around the next corner will the the one that puts you down felt more real to me than the sterile world of Oblivion.

Gothic 1/2 are hardcore player-skill based RPGs.

This type of gameplay clashes heavily with modern casual RPGs (like all of Bethesda's hilariously consolized snooze-fests), which require zero skill from the player; and hold your hand through the entire game via level scaling (You'll never run into something you can't kill by furiously clicking mouse1) and quest arrows (Why read the quest when you can follow the pretty green arrow from start to finish?).

The above is what most people have come to expect from RPGs. This is unfortunate (players need to be re-trained that they AREN'T demigods from level 1, and the world is an extremely dangerous place), but it's also a good thing; because players are in for a huge treat when they realize the amazing depth the world has. Interacting with NPCs that are far more than wooden quest dispensers, exploring and finding clever ways to steal extremely powerful treasures from enemies far stronger than yourself.

So there you have it. Gothic 1/2 are punishingly difficult, and extremely unforgiving to players who have grown accustomed to skill-less modern RPGs; but it's that constant sense of danger and wonderfully detailed world that make them fun.

For me the fun came from the survival aspect (player against a hostile world), along with exploration of the world (it really is well-crafted) and feelings of actually advancing as I became able to take on more and more of the world without having my ass handed to me. It's an experience that just isn't present in many RPGs these days, but was done very well in the Gothic series.

I agree wholeheartedly with the difficulty and general lack of hand-holding being great and a royal breath of fresh air. however, I must say that for me the setting and story (at least the political aspect, the "kill the dragon" stuff is fairly ho hum) is what does it for me. The standard good vs evil fantasy schtick is still there, true. But it's much more ambiguous. Both the farmers and the king have legitimate grievances with one another and while the king's side is nominally "good", they're hardly the shining paragons of perfection, nor are the mercs the baby-eating supervillains you usually see in high fantasy games. It just makes the world feel more realistic.

For me it's always been that Gothic feels "Real" in a sense, In reality, we don't have shiny green arrows telling us where to go, we would look at a map, If we were lowly lvl 1 chars, we wouldn't be able to tank all opponents. The world in Gothic feels hostile and interesting and the play style seems more realistic

You got to smoke weed, what more do you want? :P

To be serious, as others stated, this game has a more realistic feeling in its story. What I most like the interconnectedness of each game, as you won't feel as a stranger on Gothic 3 if you played previous games (although it had its flaws). And, our Nameless Hero isn't a super-uber epic hero in the start and by playing, you understand what are you and your place in game/world/universe.

But, it is not a game for everyone, as it is most likely for pure RPG lovers or for those who enjoy them.

I kind of had the same reaction. It took me about a half hour to figure out all the controls, I walked into the Barrier and died twice, I got murdered by a single bird because I hadn't figured out the rhythm of a continuous swing-swing-advance-block pattern yet, fell off a cliff to a lethal death, walked into a guy's hut to loot it and was very surprised when he and a pal pounded me into the ground and stole what little ore I'd accumulated (What? NPCs can loot my trembling, broken corpse? D:), and wandered into the Orclands (Hey, orcs, those tend to be good RPG cannon fodder to kill!).

Haven't played a game since Morrowind where I legitimately feel like a random guy instead of Smashius Facius, N00b God-King of the Wastes. Just finding an amulet with 5 armor that let me take more than two hits felt like an accomplishment. After a little over three hours most of the controls (besides trading...yeesh) feel natural.

It's a fantastic world. I can't wait to get to the later games and see how much it's evolved. :D

Awesome thread and great comments, and quite a few had me literally laughing out loud.

Some notable quotes... Personally I think it's also that you feel rewarded and get a sense of accomplishment when you can finally go back with a crappy, rusty sword and finally kill that lone scavenger that kicked your butt just a level or two before.

Bard's Tale 1, 2 and 3 by EA (back in the 80's) was like this. I once went into a dungeon with a low level party in Bard's Tale II, and got my butt handed to me by stuff that was hitting for 300+ damage each.

Working to get to a high enough level to actually go to an area on the map that is "Instant Death" is always rewarding because it keeps areas of the game a mystery and gives you a goal to work towards.

In Bethesda games you can traverse the entire map and get bored quickly because the entire world turns into a "Been there, seen that".

To me, nothing is more realistic and awesome, then going to a Dungeon with a level 3 character, running into a mob, and having the mob wipe the floor with me, because now my character will stay away from that Dungeon, and might come back in a level or two, the next time I try that dungeon, the mob wipes the floor with me again, but this time I put up a really good fight and made the mob work for it, and I keep checking every couple of levels until I can finally kill the mob.

That to me is extremely rewarding.

The other thing that someone else mentioned in this thread, is that because of NPC reactions, it feels like a living, breathing world.
In some other RPGs, you can go into people's houses, and ransack their house and they just stand there, in this game, they'll beat the crap out of you and steal your stuff.
The cool thing is, you can eventually become the bully and start beating people up and taking their stuff. Yet another sense of accomplishment.

Also, let's face it, running from camp-to-camp or town-to-town is actually DANGEROUS in the Gothic Series, in Fallout 3, at level 2, fresh out of the vault, I can run from Vault 101 to Rivet City without a scratch.....

Worm Bitten Meatloaf? Stinky Moldy Carpet? lol seriously?

I love the fact I struggle to kill a wolf lol. Why should I be able to kill everything in sight just cause I got a knife? Every win feels great, instead of "next!"

Whatever you do, DON'T get realms of Arkania then...If you thought THIS was a brutal game, try paragraphs of dialogue and literal note-taking on your part due to the fact that there is NO in-game journal! ...Yes, you have to keep track of your OWN quests by hand! Oh yeah, if your character catches a cold, they will most likely develop pneumonia and die, if you don't take care of it while trekking across the huge landmass! (5 times the size of Daggerfall, yet contains no filler towns!) Heh, RPG players these days... ;^)

On topic: The only true grief that I have with this game is the HORRIFIC voice-overs, not saying the actors are bad, it's that they're NEW-YORKERS in a medieval setting! I wish there was a mod that gave you the original German voice-overs!

Ok, now i really want to try Realms of Arkania :P

Realms of arkania you mean the old Das Schwarze Auge Games?

Wel back on topic: Hmm I don´t really now myself, being an old hardcore fan of Gothic. I discussed this with a friend, another Hardcore gothic fan, though and we came to the same conclusion as the most here:.......Its just such a good feeling to walk up to that Orc Elite north of Khorinis, who beat the crap out of you for about 20 levels or more and just kick his arse! And the go: "WHO IS THE F****ING WEAKLING B****CH!!!!! Or beating the crap out of the bouncer of the harbor pub in Gothic 2 on level 1. Got the snot beaten out of me several times, but I finally got him after a good fight. Also you need to move, and footwork is one of the most important things in fighting.

And I think that´s another part of Gothic, the fights really pull you in, they need your full concentration. Its the real sense of achievement. Also after playing Gothic it felt strange that you could go into a house in most other games, and steal everything in it right under their owners noses, and they wouldn´t do anything. Hell or running around with a drawn sword in a city, you couldn´t do that in real life and neither in gothic, in Oblivion you can still talk with them..........in gothic he warns you and after a time he beats the crap out of you.

Also the sometimes odd characters are just that awesome, well they are for a german, because it hits the humor of us quite well.

Just feels that good, I still have XP ready to play that game and I would be damn happy if GOG would make a german version, because as it is a german game, as a german hardcore fan you can´t play it in any other language. The german voiceovers are very good. And yes Gothic 3 is messed up, but the Community Story Team is working on fixing it, on basis of the Questpaket 4 and the Community Patch 1.74. Runs awesome with CP 1.74 and looks awesome if you turn on SSGSSAA.

Oh I forgot wait till you get a "shrink monster scroll" That is one of the most funny spells in RPG history. If you want to know, here is a spoiler: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T_lgMibsSk

Innos mit Euch!
May Innos be with you!

I too remember getting owned early and often. But for some reason it didn't seem unfair. But when I got a little stronger, some better armor and a better weapon I was able to win some of those battles. And even when I was overmatched I was literaly able to run away. Sometime I could lead the baddie to some town folks who would take care of the danger for me. Sometime I could even lead the baddie to another predator who would take care of the baddie. To this day I still do not see those same type of game dynamics.

I also liked that it took my a long time to be able to beat a skeleton. Skeleton??? Your typycial level up fodder in most RPGs. One of the early Wizadrys had one battle where you battle 100 skeletons. There was even a battle in Diablo 1 where you had to battle a room full of skeletons. But the first time I met ONE sketeton in Gothic, I think he two hit me.

I liked how you could climb anywhere. Your could even sneak into the monastery in the early game by some skillful mountian climbing. And of course you could climb the city roofs. And what was great about all that climbing was that it was not unusual to find some great goodies.

Even when it was released the graphics were just a tad behind the times. But the gameplay was eons beyond anything else on the market. And IMO, it still is . . .