I don't know where you got the requirement for steam from. Retail version I has just needs GfWL. Maybe they're just selling steam keys or referring to the fact that the retail version can be activated on steam but doesn't actually require it.

I'd say you're right. I just want to smack them all upside the head and say "Stop it! You're fucking it up for everybody!"

If you get just a key, you need to put it on steam. If you got a download, it can have just GFWL, but you can optionally also redeem the key it has on steam.

Is that so? Then game corporations can stop bitching about piracy and it's relation to DRM now. Since 90% will not bother and will buy the game one way or another, who cares about the tiny 10% or less, who pirates. Should not impact sales to greatly.

My retail copy didn't require Steam - but I could activate the key on there...

Electing to use GFWL is the same as electing to not have me as a customer. Quite literally in the case of Dark Souls since I can't buy it on Steam.

I'm OK with Steam (when is just that), but when PC games bring more DRM with the package (Tages, SecuROM, Starforce...) that's when I wait months, or more, and then I just buy the game I wanted cheaper for my Xbox 360. I did that with GTA IV, Red Dead Redemption, Assassin's Creed II, AC:B, and many more... I just insert the disc, install into HDD, and play. Done.

Forcing you to log into accounts you don't need (GFWL, Rockstar, UPlay...), use of unnecesary clients, limited installations, plus some nasty DRM in your PC, that's way too much for me, when Steam should be enough. I prefer to support DRM-Free games instead of buying games with that kind of DRM.

That's my philosophy: I don't buy games that have that kind of DRM, or more than one. And so far, I own a nice collection of games, and still have some great games yet to play in my collection.

Both of these are only if you buy them on Steam. I have non-Steam versions of both that don't need Steam at all.

I assumed there would be something similar for Dark Souls but I guess it is just the retail disc. Lame.

The PC port of Dark Souls was a bare bones job. Right after release a hack was made to change the internal rendering resolution. Yet they couldn't even have something as simple as that in the options menu. They stuck with GFWL because it has compatible online interface with the 360 version, so it kept costs down and made the port easier.

People that complained for steam did nothing but have another layer of DRM added on top of the game.

I've seen the retail version on sale with international shipping from UK stores a few times. If you want that version you can try looking around. Otherwise your only option is buying a steam key.

I know, but the fact is that if you bought the game on Steam, you were saddled with no less than 4 separate layers of online DRM, and that's about 4 layers too much (or 3, if you're pro-DRM).

I don't mind GFWL.
I don't mind Steam.

I would mind having to use both at once.

I disagree with your first point, but agree with the two others. GFWL is problematic for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that it doesn't support my country officially.

Right. I guess my point is that DRM on its own is not a huge deal to me but when you add multiple DRMs on top of each other I get pissy. I assumed because it was GFWL I could buy it on amazon or something and avoid Steam, but I guess not.

Aggravating.

So does this mean that you have to log into Rockstar Social Club even if all you do is play single player? What if you want to play the game offline? Don't tell me you'll have to go through each layer to set an (potentially unreliable?) offline mode...

Let me tell you from somebody who has put something like eighty hours into this game.

It is no issue. Steam is usually running in my background anyway as it is constantly updating and checking anyway. So going through Steam is not an issue as I don't clutter my Desktop with gaming links.

And the GFWL thingy is, after the initial activation, which is strg+c, strg+v and takes roughly 30 seconds. After that, the GFWL activation login is faster over than the actual loading of the game. Even after removing the intro vids, I never have to wait on GFWL.

The whole game takes about ten seconds from clicking play to being in the main menu. A lot faster than many games without GFWL. Firing up Steam might take another ten seconds longer if you don't have it running already.

Considering how long some games need to build up, especially thanks to unskipable intros, DS is downright pleasent. And I did start it _a lot_ as I ALT + F4'ed myself out of a lot of boss fights.

Therefore, unless you have some psychological problems with DRM, this really won't bother you much.