Thanks for the suggestion! No worries, I understood your suggestion to be no more subversive than mine! Read that how you will ... (j/k!, :P) - I'll look them up though in my case it will have to wait until I finish A Dance with Dragons!

Here are the wikipedia links for Hume so you could preview if you think reading him would be of interest:

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hume , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialogues_Concerning_Natural_Religion)

Probably time for me to get back to work, nice chatting with you!

Have you actually read Dawkins? He has never made statements like the ones you mentioned -- on the contrary, he has argued strongly against such absolutist claims. In his book, "The God Delusion," he states that because evidence can change any rational person's mind, no thinking atheist would consider themselves a strong atheist as defined by the statement "I know there is no God, with the same conviction as Jung knows there is one." On his "spectrum of theistic probability," where 1 is a strong theist and 7 is a strong atheist, he identified himself as a 6.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_of_theistic_probability

In fact, he has admitted that he believes there is a rather significant chance that god exists. In this interview, he says that he is only about 99% certain that there is no god.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6EXeZPNxHU

What if it had been a muslim prayer tapestry.

Would the christians here be also defending them against those pesky atheist? Heck, it's even the same god and notsome weird elephant tentacle thingy....

The main issue I have with Dawkins is that he seems to think that he's part of some cool club of people who really know what's going on, and he's trying to save all those poor sods who just don't know any better cause of how they were raised. I'm not sure if that's because he's a lot more closeminded than he'd like to believe, or if he's just the same breed of my-views-are-the-only-true-ones elitist that humanity has been dealing with for millennia. If he really thinks he's found some sort of enlightenment, then he's spreading it around in the most inflammatory manner possible. Which leads me to believe that he's probably just in it for the publicity, or to rile people up. There's a reason that a lot of atheists think he gives the rest a bad name.

Our saucer which art in a colander,
draining be Your noodles.
Thy noodle come,
Thy meatballness be done on earth,
as it is meaty in heaven.
Give us this day our daily sauce,
and forgive us our lack of piracy,
as we pirate and smuggle
against those who lack piracy with us.
And lead us not into vegetarianism,
but deliver us from non-red meat sauce.
For thine is the colander, the noodle, and the sauce,
forever and ever.
R'Amen.


*note the piracy reference is regarding the sea-going swashbucking kind

Bullshit, half the posters here are equivocating by saying she's selfish, dumb, and foolish wasting their city resources in such a manner. She is none of those things and denigrating her is simply letting your biases color the issue. She did nothing wrong. During every step of the way the city took an unreasonable and illegal position while she merely enforced her rights (and the rights of everyone else, religious and atheist alike, though I doubt many are wise enough to see that).

So my "rant' isn't about school prayer but how people have a way of shrugging this kind of shit off as "no big deal" when in fact it is a big deal and, in fact, is endemic a lot of the time.

We are better than that, or should be at least.
Look up "blaming the victim" because that's what you're doing. That girl did nothing wrong and is simply standing up for what she's been taught is the way it's supposed to be. And in fact, it's the way it actually IS supposed to be.

She took and unpopular and brave stand to correct something that wasn't right, something that has likely affected people for the last 50 years, and you're criticizing her, instead of the city which was unreasonable at every step? If you don't realize why I'm saying "wait a minute here, this is bullshit and there's a long history of this very bullshit in the US" you really need to ponder a little, do some reading, ask some older folks, whatever.

You keep saying "harmless prayer banner", you're trivializing the whole thing by doing so. The damned thing didn't belong and should have been removed at the first polite request. Any damned kid that had listened in their social studies and US history classes could have told you as much.
Ah, here we go again, equating atheists to theists. I assure you it's not the same thing. I know why you argue it is. I've heard it before, but you're wrong.

As I quoted in the other thread, "Atheism is a religion in the same sense that 'not collecting stamps' is a hobby."

No, just the religious folks smoke pot and go to strip clubs too over here. Atheism is still in the minority around here, though I suppose if you hang out on campus at Reed you wouldn't think so.

Listen, we've been having a very mature and open minded discussion about religions and beliefs tonight, and I really don't appreciate you coming in here and typing hateful, anti religious bias aimed at anyone not explicitly in agreement with you. I agree that, according to the law, this girl every "right" to do what she did. But I maintain that she acted stupidly and selfishly, and ended up making a huge mess for everyone. The city has to pay exorbitant legal fees, and she will most likely be ridiculed and bullied until she graduates. It's a no win situation that could have easily been avoided. Now, you clearly have some issues with religion that you need to sort out elsewhere, so if you won't post anything to add to the discussion, please don't post anything at all.

Not only that, he's a bad example of a debater and tends to resort to mockery all too easily. I get the frustration he feels but he's absolutely shitty to listen to on the subject of religion and/or atheism and is boring to boot.

He is a brilliant biologist and it's a shame he focuses so much energy on the other stuff because he's terrible at it.

I do have something to add to the discussion and have plainly stated my points on several occasions. If it's easier to ignore or disagree with it by denigrating my statements and points as "issues" I guess that's your prerogative. However I've seen you over and over again post rather negative things about this girl when it in no way seems deserved. Yes, I'm calling you on it, it's crap. You're blaming a victim among other things. When you say, "She deserves every bit of ridicule she gets." Seriously, wtf is wrong with you? How do you expect someone to react. What in your linked article justifies you heaping scorn on her?

Just because you didn't think her right to religious freedom and right to not be religiously persecuted isn't important doesn't actually mean it's not important. Just because I choose to not exercise a freedom doesn't mean I would deny it to others and neither should you, if for no other reason than pure self interest.

You're blaming someone for standing up to a bunch of bullies who actually were in the wrong and then have the gall to accuse me of not being open minded? Well pot, meet kettle it looks like we're both birds of a feather, then. The city chose to defend a case that when they knew they were wrong, they thought they could shut up a weak person by punching her enough times. She stood up to it, good for her!

You see, it's not about atheism, or religion, it's about people screaming bloody murder over their rights while working fervently to deny rights to anyone who's "not like them." So be annoyed at me, at her, if you really want to. You're still blaming a victim and pooh-poohing rights that people have fought and died for.

I cannot comprehend how you possibly think she's a victim? Did the prayer banner fall on her and break her spine? Did students inspired by the prayer banner try to sacrifice her on an altar? Or do you really hate any religion so much that you'll side with anyone against it, no matter how frivolous an issue? I'm sorry, but you aren't making much sense. And if she has such a strong "right" to religious freedom, what about the one or two students who were earnestly inspired by the prayer? Perhaps it reminded them every day what they chose to live for? What makes her right trump their right? I really think this whole issue just boils down to either entitlement or sensitivity. If she had simply dealt with it rationally, no one would have been affected. And again, who exactly has died for this girl to have the right to make a frivolous lawsuit against her hometown?

I admit, I should not have wished ridicule upon her. I was angry after reading the article. That was wrong.

She's a victim because she's been persecuted by the community for standing up for what she believes in.

Secondly, the banner shouldn't have been there in the first place, and she didn't make a mistake asking for it to be removed. It's a blatant violation of the First Amendment, which is exactly what the courts decided. Whether or not the banner actually did her harm is irrelevant.

Thirdly, it's not a frivolous issue. It could have been, at first, but once the school started fighting tooth and nail, it became serious. The persecution is likewise serious.

I don't hate religion and I agree with orcish: the school was stupid and wrong, and the fees incurred are their own doing and no one else's. It's also a tragedy that the girl is being hounded for upholding the Constitution. He just gets a little... irritable sometimes.

So none of us know the specificities of the case or the young lady involved. However, there are a myriad of possibilities covered by two archetypes:

1) She didn't really care about it, but used it as a lightning rod to make a statement (your view)

2) The banner plus the school's, city's and peers' reaction to her (lawful) request are emblematic of a culture of hostility towards people who are not religious and this was her making a stand against the bias she faced even before her request (orcish's view).

There are some fights I don't think are worth having, there are some that are. But regardless, she shouldn't face ridicule for pointing out that the school is not acting in accordance of the law and the principles of non-sponsorship of religion.

EDIT: also just read your edit :)

Everyone's "right to religious freedom" is predicated, in the US by law, on having no state sponsored religion. We've decided, legally, this means the state cannot sponsor religion in this way. That's how her rights were being infringed and the other kids' rights weren't. They didn't replace it with a pro-atheism banner, they removed it so they were not sponsoring anything at all, as is correct.

I think she's a victim precisely because she pointed out what was right and got shit on for it. Had to actually fight for what should have been obvious to everyone, has to now put up with bullying for taking a stand, and now people like you are cheering on her oppressors. You seriously cannot tell how she's a victim? You think people didn't say the same thing about Rosa Parks? It wouldn't have cost so much money... should have left it alone... back of the bus isn't bad at all... kind of shit?

And before you say, "hey that's obviously different!" Well, no, it wasn't obviously different because that's just how it fucking was back then. It didn't make it any more "right", it just was.

It took enough people enforcing their rights to make a change then and always will.

For the record, no, I don't hate religious people "that much". I hate it when people oppress people because they can and I'd be the first to jump to a religious person's defense were they to need it. You don't know what that looks like precisely because it doesn't often happen to Christians or Jews in this day and age in the US, at least not nationally. So you can write it off to me "hating on the poor religious folk", but what it is is oppression which I find abhorrent in all its forms. Furthermore cheering it on as if it's somehow deserved is doubly sick, which is why I'm taking an issue with you cheerleading it.
Yeah, I do, I think it's a lack of fiber... or something;)

He edited his post after you wrote yours :)