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General discussion (archive)The Witcher 2: update of our Geo-IP policy(282 posts)(282 posts)
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Posted December 23, 2011
GOG.com Implements Court-Required Changes; Uses Geo-IP to Determine Location for Witcher 2 Purchases

If you’ve been paying attention to news about the CD Projekt RED group, you’ve possibly heard that a French court made a judgement about a few things that were in dispute between CD Projekt RED and Namco Bandai Partners. Most of the decision doesn’t influence GOG.com, but one of the rulings from the court does: according to the findings of the court, the method that we have been using to determine what location a game purchaser is located at when they buy a copy of [url=http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/the_witcher_2]The Witcher 2 (and, as such, what version and price they are presented with) needs to be changed.

GOG.com has stated for a long time now that we believe that the best security is asking only for the minimum of information that we need to successfully transact business with our customers. Our opinion is still that including things like determining your location via Geo-IP, because there are several possible flaws with that system. However, in order to keep selling The Witcher 2, we will need to implement a Geo-IP based system for determining your location, per the orders of the court.

We will be implementing this system immediately; you will see that your local currency’s price is now featured on the product page when you visit it, based on your IP address. Since we've already announced the price for this game would be the same flat price everywhere during the Holiday Sale (which ends on January 2nd, 2012, at 23:59 EST Time), we’re not going to change the pricing for the Witcher 2 until this sale ends.

We remain committed to user privacy and keeping your information as safe and secure as we can. Further, while your profile’s location is, by order of the court, determined via Geo-IP when you purchase a copy of The Witcher 2, you can still set your country location for the forums as you would like, and your location doesn’t matter for buying any other games on GOG.com.

If you have already purchased your copy of the Witcher 2, we won’t be changing anything on your already-bought copy, just as if you had a boxed copy on a physical shelf instead of a virtual box on your GOG.com shelf.

If you have any questions about this, please feel free to ask it the comments below, or (if you’re a journalist) drop us an email and we’ll get back to you as soon as we can.
Posted December 23, 2011
I sure regretted that I ever bought this game after I read this. I have played the game at most 10 minutes so far. I just have too many games to play, I mostly bought it to support a company taking the risk of releasing a new game without DRM. The scare tactics are just one of the lowest forms of anti piracy.

Anyone protesting, and they would have to drop the case, at least I am pretty sure of that, but more than a few doesn't know that and even fear that they might lose whether they ever heard of the game or not.
Posted December 23, 2011
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hedwards: But at this stage there's no evidence to suggest that they're abusing the legal system except for a few questionable articles on pro-piracy sites without proper documentation.
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Leroux: You are right if you mean there's no evidence to suggest that innocent people have been affected by CDProjekt's tactics yet. Just as there's no evidence to prove the contrary. There is proof that CDProjekt is using the cease-and-desist tactics though and that they believe that it's a fool-proof and appropriate way to fight piracy, and that's what we're questioning here.
Burden of proof rests with the party that's claiming that there are letters being sent to people who haven't pirated the materials. Not to those of us demanding substantiation, it's a standard rule as otherwise people could make whatever accusations they liked knowing that they couldn't be disproved even if incorrect.


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hedwards: In most civilized countries it's innocent until proven guilty, although that's criminal only.
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Leroux: I guess you answered your own question there. This doesn't fall under criminal law, and civil law works differently.
You misread what I wrote. Guilty only applies to criminal law, in civil law you're found to have committed a tort or basically to be responsible, they still have to demonstrate that you're most likely resonsible.

If Germany is that backwards on the matter, then you've got much more serious problems that need to be dealt with, none of which are the fault of CDPR.
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kblood: I sure regretted that I ever bought this game after I read this. I have played the game at most 10 minutes so far. I just have too many games to play, I mostly bought it to support a company taking the risk of releasing a new game without DRM. The scare tactics are just one of the lowest forms of anti piracy.

Anyone protesting, and they would have to drop the case, at least I am pretty sure of that, but more than a few doesn't know that and even fear that they might lose whether they ever heard of the game or not.
Well, I regret buying it mostly because it's never run right, the specs on it were quite confusing as to what would really work. My system was somewhat marginal, but it doesn't run smoothly enough to be considered playable even with the settings where the program recommends them being.
Post edited December 23, 2011 by hedwards
Posted December 23, 2011
So, French laws are dumb and idiots sit in the court. So what? You have options:
- do not do business in country like this
- open subsidiary that does business with that country only
- update your website so that it conforms to court's demands only when dealing with customers from France (identify them by IP or explicit user setting)
- simply show them middle finger -- your business in internet, not France

I see no problem here -- plenty of options to avoid saying "sorry" to majority of customers who do not give a damn what French court might say.

But no, company was too happy to find an excuse for deploying Geo-IP business-wide. I wonder, if some court in Zimbabwe will ask company to remove geo-IP -- what will you do?
Post edited December 23, 2011 by crusader_mike
Posted December 23, 2011
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hedwards: Burden of proof rests with the party that's claiming that there are letters being sent to people who haven't pirated the materials. Not to those of us demanding substantiation, it's a standard rule as otherwise people could make whatever accusations they liked knowing that they couldn't be disproved even if incorrect.
Wait wait wait. What you JUST did there? You just said that the innocent need to prove that they're innocent and that CD Projekt doesn't need to prove the validity of their accusations. You. The person who was just championing 'innocent until proven guilty'. Holy circular logic Batman!

So the people believing that the accused are innocent until proven guilty are wrong according to you. Is that what you're saying here? because it sounds an awful lot like you're putting the burden of proof on the accused to prove their innocence to me.


Also, you have once again failed to acknowledge that protesting in court for your innocence is the real threat in these letters. Being innocent and going to court is not free it costs thousands of dollars and lost wages. You refuse to acknowledge this basic fact.

Most people will settle when they get these letters innocent or not. These letters are designed to force people to admit guilt regardless of the facts of the case because the financial and time burden to fight the accusation are more expensive than the settlement amount.

That is the crux of why people are calling this extortion and blackmail. if you cannot address that concern, you have no argument.
Post edited December 23, 2011 by jeffreydean1
Posted December 23, 2011
"[...]and your location doesn’t matter for buying any other games on GOG.com."

Good, I sincerely hope that it continues the way it is for the rest of the catalogue.
Posted December 23, 2011
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jeffreydean1: Using this as an example to attempt the ludicrous claim that US courts are cheap is as intellectually dishonest as it is flat out wrong.
I hope you were not talking to me (and if you were you took what I said completely wrong), I was just making a joke, obviously, which is more productive then arguing about this with people who won't be agreeing with you, and on a thread that was meant for another topic entirely.
Posted December 23, 2011
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jeffreydean1: Using this as an example to attempt the ludicrous claim that US courts are cheap is as intellectually dishonest as it is flat out wrong.
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KOCollins: I hope you were not talking to me (and if you were you took what I said completely wrong), I was just making a joke, obviously, which is more productive then arguing about this with people who won't be agreeing with you, and on a thread that was meant for another topic entirely.
Thought it would be obvious, but no, I was talking to the person that brought it up in the first place. Sorry for the confusion.
Posted December 23, 2011
@ crusader_mike

The case not only of France, and all territories in which it seems Namco game. Case considered was in France, because there Namco has its headquarters (in europe?). And the court did not ask. the court ordered. If the CD PROJECT (GOG) fails to comply with court orders, it will lose 1 000 000 Euro which is deposited by Namco in court and will have to pay 10 000 Euro penalty for every day of delay!

Sorry for my english.
Post edited December 23, 2011 by Maciekw
Posted December 23, 2011
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jeffreydean1: Thought it would be obvious, but no, I was talking to the person that brought it up in the first place. Sorry for the confusion.
No problem, thanks for clarifying, and sorry I misunderstood. :) I understand what you mean then, and that is kinda why I made the joke actually...Bashing US courts has nothing to do with what is being discussed, that I knew of... Further, though are courts aren't perfect (not at all), I have a feeling they are better then most. ;)
Posted December 23, 2011
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hedwards: You misread what I wrote. Guilty only applies to criminal law, in civil law you're found to have committed a tort or basically to be responsible, they still have to demonstrate that you're most likely resonsible.
Granted in that case, but you misread what I wrote, too, unless you intentionally choose to ignore it. I'm not accusing CDProjekt Red of sending letters to people who haven't pirated their materials, I'm talking about the possibility of that to happen without CDProjekt Red finding out about it, and about the general reliability of the method they're using. And I'm not basing my information on any articles from any possibly piracy-supporting sites but on the literal answers of CDProjekt Red to the questions of a RPS blogger. And none of your objections treat the issues of stress and cost for someone trying to prove their innocence.

Anyway, I don't feel like argueing about it today and going around in circles again. You have your opinions, I have mine, and it adds up to nothing. I'm going to leave the discussion at this point and do something useful. Or at least play a game. :D
Post edited December 23, 2011 by Leroux
Posted December 23, 2011
What are the flaws with geo-IP?
Posted December 23, 2011
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Elatis: You people want to boycott someone? Boycott Namco Bandai.
I started the moment I heard about the results of this lawsuit.
You are perfectly right!
This time CD Projekt will need to take hid of Muad'Dib's: "I will bend like a reed in the wind". For TW3 I don't think #@$amco will have anything to do with it and any other distributor will need to agree to the CD Projekt terms.
Posted December 23, 2011
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Elatis: You people want to boycott someone? Boycott Namco Bandai.
I started the moment I heard about the results of this lawsuit.
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Krisk7: You are perfectly right!
This time CD Projekt will need to take hid of Muad'Dib's: "I will bend like a reed in the wind". For TW3 I don't think #@$amco will have anything to do with it and any other distributor will need to agree to the CD Projekt terms.
That reminds it about time to watch Dune again for the tenth time I think ! :)
Post edited December 23, 2011 by summitus
Posted December 23, 2011
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TheFrenchMonk: As we mentioned many times recently, we will release newer games in 2012, and those will undergo the usual GOG treatment : DRM-free + fair price policy + tons of goodies and value added.
Does that mean the new games will have fair price policy (difference compensated in gog store credit), or will the newer old games have the same price everywhere in the world (so no need to credit the difference)?
Posted December 23, 2011
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hedwards: Burden of proof rests with the party that's claiming that there are letters being sent to people who haven't pirated the materials. Not to those of us demanding substantiation, it's a standard rule as otherwise people could make whatever accusations they liked knowing that they couldn't be disproved even if incorrect.
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jeffreydean1: Wait wait wait. What you JUST did there? You just said that the innocent need to prove that they're innocent and that CD Projekt doesn't need to prove the validity of their accusations. You. The person who was just championing 'innocent until proven guilty'. Holy circular logic Batman!

So the people believing that the accused are innocent until proven guilty are wrong according to you. Is that what you're saying here? because it sounds an awful lot like you're putting the burden of proof on the accused to prove their innocence to me.


Also, you have once again failed to acknowledge that protesting in court for your innocence is the real threat in these letters. Being innocent and going to court is not free it costs thousands of dollars and lost wages. You refuse to acknowledge this basic fact.

Most people will settle when they get these letters innocent or not. These letters are designed to force people to admit guilt regardless of the facts of the case because the financial and time burden to fight the accusation are more expensive than the settlement amount.

That is the crux of why people are calling this extortion and blackmail. if you cannot address that concern, you have no argument.
There's no hypocrisy there. CDPR is offering a settlement, the people who receive the letters have the option of declining to settle. At which point CDPR would presumably have to satisfy the German legal system that their accusation is valid.

The people who are claiming extortion and blackmail are the ones that have to justify it. The burden of proof is on them and at this stage there's no evidence to suggest that there is any blackmail, extortion, racketeering or anything similar going on.

Just because you're able to post defamatory comments without any evidence doesn't mean that the burden of proof is anywhere other than you to prove that your comment is true.
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General discussion (archive)The Witcher 2: update of our Geo-IP policy(282 posts)(282 posts)
(282 posts)