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Krypsyn: I see your point: why even put yourself int he position of causing the trouble in the first place? There is such thing as responsible gun ownership, however. It is impossible to guard against nut-jobs; they are going to cause trouble no matter what laws are passed. Common household products can make a bomb, for instance. In terms of crimes of passion, I have seen some heavy damage done by a common clay brick.
Nonetheless, my point is that unless it was illegal for that man to own and carry a gun in the office (or went against a known office policy), there was ZERO reason for cops to get involved. If there is no crime, there is no need for law enforcement. Or are we going to start arresting people just because they might, potentially break the law? If enough people see a problem with it, they should make a law against it, THEN I am fine with the cops getting involved.
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Crassmaster: So before the person who called it in did so they should have...what...called over to see if he was licensed to own/carry a weapon, and then checked with the office building policy on firearms?
It's called prevention. Someone saw what looked like a person waving a gun around in an office building. The cops responded.

It still wasn't against the law (correct me if i am wrong). If it isn't against the law, then they have no business getting involved. UNLESS, there are other circumstances. Just having a gun in plain view is not enough reason. If there were some other reason for them charging in, any other reason, I would let it slide. That IS the law in the U.S.: If the cops have a reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed, they are free to investigate. Just owning a gun, and showing it in public in a not threatening manner, is NOT reason enough, in my opinion. Clearly, other people hold the opposite view. *shrug*
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Krypsyn: I think people get hyper scared of guns because they have never held one, much less been trained with one. Thus, folks tend to overreact when seeing a gun. Sure, guns kill people, so can a great many other objects (whether expressly designed for it or not). Just owning a gun and transporting it legally does NOT constitute a threat on its own; just having a gun visible does not warrant a SWAT team unless there are other circumstances involved.
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DarrkPhoenix: Careful now, you're sounding way too sensible there. We can't have people arguing against the climate of fear that's been developed. ;)

I must say that guns do not kill people. Other people kill people, or the people kill themselves. Guns never do it though. Guns are simply tools.
Say I willed a deer that might taste good to me to die so I can eat it. It would be a great deal more difficult to kill the deer with my bare hands, so I pick up the gun and it becomes an extension of my will. Then I pull the trigger and my will for the deer to die happens to land into it's heart, and he dies. Guns are not deadly unless someone wills it to be deadly.
Man I drank some beer and made a clearly epic paragraph. Wisdom is in the firewater.
These were the officers that stormed the building.

snorted lemonade out of my nose. that hurt asshole
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Crassmaster: So before the person who called it in did so they should have...what...called over to see if he was licensed to own/carry a weapon, and then checked with the office building policy on firearms?
It's called prevention. Someone saw what looked like a person waving a gun around in an office building. The cops responded.
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Krypsyn: It still wasn't against the law (correct me if i am wrong). If it isn't against the law, then they have no business getting involved. UNLESS, there are other circumstances. Just having a gun in plain view is not enough reason. If there were some other reason for them charging in, any other reason, I would let it slide. That IS the law in the U.S.: If the cops have a reasonable suspicion that a crime is being committed, they are free to investigate. Just owning a gun, and showing it in public in a not threatening manner, is NOT reason enough, in my opinion. Clearly, other people hold the opposite view. *shrug*

Police were called and told that someone was waving a gun around in an office building. That's all the detail that they received. So what should they have done then? What would you have them do? Just shrug it off?
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tb87670: Guns are not deadly unless someone wills it to be deadly.

Or if that someone is waving it around while drunk or high, maybe gets scared or surprised, and accidentally pulls the trigger as the gun is pointed to their buddy, mate, kid, or other random person.
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Crassmaster: Police were called and told that someone was waving a gun around in an office building. That's all the detail that they received. So what should they have done then? What would you have them do? Just shrug it off?

If what you write is what the news blurb actually reported, I would agree with you fully. However, this is NOT what the linked article wrote. It said: "...called police to report lone man sitting in an office with a gun. " Has sitting become a threatening act while I wasn't paying attention?
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tb87670: Guns are not deadly unless someone wills it to be deadly.
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Miaghstir: Or if that someone is waving it around while drunk or high, maybe gets scared or surprised, and accidentally pulls the trigger as the gun is pointed to their buddy, mate, kid, or other random person.

They are holding onto the gun because they wanted to, again guns are not deadly alone. it's the people who are dumb enough to be drunk and high and hold onto a gun at the same time that are dangerous as your example shows. What if they had a steak-knife, that can kill? I don't see bans on steak knives.
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tb87670: What if they had a steak-knife, that can kill? I don't see bans on steak knives.

Yeah, and cars, and chainsaws, and a lot of other stuff.
Still it's not necessarily an extension of the will to see someone dead.
Post edited January 18, 2010 by Miaghstir
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Crassmaster: Police were called and told that someone was waving a gun around in an office building. That's all the detail that they received. So what should they have done then? What would you have them do? Just shrug it off?
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Krypsyn: If what you write is what the news blurb actually reported, I would agree with you fully. However, this is NOT what the linked article wrote. It said: "...called police to report lone man sitting in an office with a gun. " Has sitting become a threatening act while I wasn't paying attention?

Well, As you pointed out earlier, we don't know the total context. Perhaps there had been a previous scare, or something recent in the caller's mind that would put them on edge or made them feel this was not normal behaviour. In any case, unfounded or not, once called, the police had the obligation to respond. In the US they would, in this case, be operating under both Good Faith and Terry, as there would be (presumably) reasonable suspicion that a crime is being or about to be committed allowing the police to conduct their business.
That said, you can infer there are additional details not added into the article by virtue of a SWAT team showing up. In the US (I Know Canada is slightly different), SWAT is not a first response, Patrol Ops are (beat cops). Generally, a supervisor at the scene makes the decision to initiate a call-out, and there are criteria that must be met in the first place. It takes time for a SWAT team to be set up (call members in, get equipment/vehicles, set up command post, relieve/debrief first responders)
Don't forget there are also Moral Obligation (welfare) calls (Personally I think this is one, but there's not enough in the article one way or the other). Simply put, while not criminal per se, Police in the US are obligated to check on the welfare of individuals (unable to care for themselves, suicidal, etc) and get them help, if needed. Sometimes, those end up in SWAT call outs as well (Ie suicidal individual w/gun barricaded in a home).
Ok, this thread could get highly political any second, so I'm just going to post some facts about Canadian gun control law here. Please don't devolve into calling them stupid laws. Last thing we need is a flame war about guns. Anyway:
Gun ownership is not a constitutional right in Canada. Period. It is, however, a legal right, so nearly anyone can own a gun anyway.
Most rifles and shotguns are Non-Restricted Firearms, because they have important utilities in rural areas. You still need a Non-Restricted Firearms License to own or use one.
Handguns are Restricted Firearms in Canada. This means you need a Restricted Firearms License to own them.
Automatic weapons, any gun you'd think of as "Wow that's big," is a Prohibited Firearm, and require a Prohibited Firearms License to own. I imagine this requires serious ability to jump through hoops, or an excellent reason otherwise.
Illegal guns are the only guns obtainable without a license. Naturally, they are very, very illegal. I suggest not getting one. :P
Each individual gun has to be registered with the Gun Registry. There is legislation being debated to take rifles and shotguns off the registry, for various reasons. Handguns and BFGs are unlikely to ever be removed from the registry, however, because they have no notable mundane utility. A rifle is more useful, and can't be easily hidden.
Transporting Non-Restricted guns is not illegal. Transporting a Restricted/Prohibited firearm is illegal without obtaining a temporary authorization from the government.
Displaying a gun in a public place, in a way that is likely to cause a breach of the peace, is illegal. Any gun at all. This applies to Police and Security Guards as well, though there are some exceptions, like when guarding objects of extreme value, or when SWAT is called obviously. A lot of cops are not armed at all when on duty, beyond tasers, pepperspray, that sort of thing. This is basically why SWAT showed up in this case. In Canada, an unregistered probably illegal handgun on display by someone with no license = intent to kill. That's the only logical conclusion anyone can make. Luckily, it turned out to be made of lego, which is not a logical conclusion to jump to at all, but is sort of funny. :)
Anyway, hope that clears things up a bit.
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denyasis: Well, As you pointed out earlier, we don't know the total context. Perhaps there had been a previous scare, or something recent in the caller's mind that would put them on edge or made them feel this was not normal behaviour. In any case, unfounded or not, once called, the police had the obligation to respond. In the US they would, in this case, be operating under both Good Faith and Terry, as there would be (presumably) reasonable suspicion that a crime is being or about to be committed allowing the police to conduct their business.
That said, you can infer there are additional details not added into the article by virtue of a SWAT team showing up. In the US (I Know Canada is slightly different), SWAT is not a first response, Patrol Ops are (beat cops). Generally, a supervisor at the scene makes the decision to initiate a call-out, and there are criteria that must be met in the first place. It takes time for a SWAT team to be set up (call members in, get equipment/vehicles, set up command post, relieve/debrief first responders)
Don't forget there are also Moral Obligation (welfare) calls (Personally I think this is one, but there's not enough in the article one way or the other). Simply put, while not criminal per se, Police in the US are obligated to check on the welfare of individuals (unable to care for themselves, suicidal, etc) and get them help, if needed. Sometimes, those end up in SWAT call outs as well (Ie suicidal individual w/gun barricaded in a home).

I refuse to make assumptions. Given what was written there, I think this was a gross overreaction. The only indication the articles gives on the man's state of mind is to say he wad sitting and the gun was laying on is desk. He wasn't even holding it, much less waving it around.
Just owning a gun and letting other people see it does NOT constitute reasonable suspicion. Unless the woman on the phone is able to point to something threatening in the man's demeanor, or there have been threats for the area or other outside circumstances, there is no reason to call in SWAT. There is nothing in the article to indicate such a situation, so given the knowledge at hand I can't agree with the actions taken by the police. Sending a couple cops to check it out is no big deal, but sending in SWAT and handcuffing him? Good grief.
The rest of your post makes assumptions, and attempts to tell a story based on them to fit your arguments. I refuse to argue hypotheticals, which essentially any argument based on an assumption must necessarily become.
Edit to add another reply:
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MooseHowl: Ok, this thread could get highly political any second, so I'm just going to post some facts about Canadian gun control law here. Please don't devolve into calling them stupid laws. Last thing we need is a flame war about guns. Anyway:
Gun ownership is not a constitutional right in Canada. Period. It is, however, a legal right, so nearly anyone can own a gun anyway.
Most rifles and shotguns are Non-Restricted Firearms, because they have important utilities in rural areas. You still need a Non-Restricted Firearms License to own or use one.
Handguns are Restricted Firearms in Canada. This means you need a Restricted Firearms License to own them.
Automatic weapons, any gun you'd think of as "Wow that's big," is a Prohibited Firearm, and require a Prohibited Firearms License to own. I imagine this requires serious ability to jump through hoops, or an excellent reason otherwise.
Illegal guns are the only guns obtainable without a license. Naturally, they are very, very illegal. I suggest not getting one. :P
Each individual gun has to be registered with the Gun Registry. There is legislation being debated to take rifles and shotguns off the registry, for various reasons. Handguns and BFGs are unlikely to ever be removed from the registry, however, because they have no notable mundane utility. A rifle is more useful, and can't be easily hidden.
Transporting Non-Restricted guns is not illegal. Transporting a Restricted/Prohibited firearm is illegal without obtaining a temporary authorization from the government.
Displaying a gun in a public place, in a way that is likely to cause a breach of the peace, is illegal. Any gun at all. This applies to Police and Security Guards as well, though there are some exceptions, like when guarding objects of extreme value, or when SWAT is called obviously. A lot of cops are not armed at all when on duty, beyond tasers, pepperspray, that sort of thing. This is basically why SWAT showed up in this case. In Canada, an unregistered probably illegal handgun on display by someone with no license = intent to kill. That's the only logical conclusion anyone can make. Luckily, it turned out to be made of lego, which is not a logical conclusion to jump to at all, but is sort of funny. :)
Anyway, hope that clears things up a bit.

Well, there ya go. In Canada, this was the correct response, since having a gun in plan sight IS against the law (unless expressly allowed by the government). Thanks for clearing that up, MooseHowl, that was the question I asked in my first post, I think. In the U.S., I still think this would be a gross overreaction, but that is only because the laws are different.
Post edited January 18, 2010 by Krypsyn
I often find it funny (and fascinating) how two neighbouring societies can be so similar on the surface yet so utterly alien underneath. :)