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darthspudius: That is a very long post that just read in my mind "I believe in science, not ghosts and those that do are idiots!"

It just sounds as narrow minded as religious people regarding every subject known to man.
Not really, science is in fact the opposite to narrowmindedness. First off, nobody believes in science, least of all the scientists themselves; science is a tool that provides verifiable data about stuff, nothing less and nothing more. A phenomenon which has a verifiable record will be accounted by scientists UNTIL there is evidence proving otherwise. This has happened lots of times in the history of science; many people like to interpret this as "see? scientists believed in newtonian physics and all the time they were WRONG!".

This is not how it works. Science doesn't work with a notion of TRUTH in capital letters, all you get is verifiable and reasonably backed facts, but nothing else. I guess this is why most people feel disapponted with science, because they look for Universal Truth and you need to find that elsewhere.

A simple example about how science works: suppose you have a friend who is, say, a physicist, and you tell him: "hey, my cousin told me he said 'candyman' three times in front of a mirror, and a ghost appeared! ". Well, probably most people would answer "your cousin is a dumbass". Your friend the physicist, on the contrary, would go back home, and back again to you later saying, "hey, I did the candyman experiment in my own bathroom's mirror, and then in all the mirrors in a mirror store, and nothing happened; here's a written account of every step I took and the results, sorry but I couldn't verify the claim of your cousin. Please give him my notes and tell him to keep me informed if he devises a working version of the experiment".
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darthspudius: That is a very long post that just read in my mind "I believe in science, not ghosts and those that do are idiots!"

It just sounds as narrow minded as religious people regarding every subject known to man.
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svmariscal: Not really, science is in fact the opposite to narrowmindedness. First off, nobody believes in science, least of all the scientists themselves; science is a tool that provides verifiable data about stuff, nothing less and nothing more. A phenomenon which has a verifiable record will be accounted by scientists UNTIL there is evidence proving otherwise. This has happened lots of times in the history of science; many people like to interpret this as "see? scientists believed in newtonian physics and all the time they were WRONG!".

This is not how it works. Science doesn't work with a notion of TRUTH in capital letters, all you get is verifiable and reasonably backed facts, but nothing else. I guess this is why most people feel disapponted with science, because they look for Universal Truth and you need to find that elsewhere.

A simple example about how science works: suppose you have a friend who is, say, a physicist, and you tell him: "hey, my cousin told me he said 'candyman' three times in front of a mirror, and a ghost appeared! ". Well, probably most people would answer "your cousin is a dumbass". Your friend the physicist, on the contrary, would go back home, and back again to you later saying, "hey, I did the candyman experiment in my own bathroom's mirror, and then in all the mirrors in a mirror store, and nothing happened; here's a written account of every step I took and the results, sorry but I couldn't verify the claim of your cousin. Please give him my notes and tell him to keep me informed if he devises a working version of the experiment".
Ok perhaps that was the wrong choice of words but it's one extreme or the other.
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DarrkPhoenix: There are certainly many unanswered questions in science. It's why people like me have jobs. However, ghosts aren't an unanswered question- they are just an idea some people have put forth then time and time again failed to produce any evidence to support. There isn't some indication that they exist but with lots of unanswered questions about the details- there's just lots of wild speculation (with absolutely no supporting evidence) by people who don't seem to even know how to put forth a scientific hypothesis, let alone test it.

As for not being able to observe certain things, while we didn't have the tools to observe the details of certain things in the past (and that's a never-ending process), we still could certain observe the overall effects (by virtue of those things being able to effect us). Science progresses through the identification of phenomenon that are not adequately explained by existing scientific theories. However, for this to happen you first need to actually observe such a phenomenon (and not in a "check out this shaky-cam footage!!!" kind of way), then rigorously test ways in which existing theories might explain the phenomenon. And if all the existing theories then fail to adequately explain it, only then do you get to start on the real challenge of trying to come up with novel hypotheses on what might be going on.

However, people making claims about ghosts rarely seem to have a phenomenon to observe to begin with. Then in the cases where there may indeed be such a phenomenon and it's rigorously tested it seems that invariably the phenomenon either can't be reproduced under controlled conditions, or it ends up being explained just fine by existing scientific theories (or it's just some douche-bag in a rubber mask who would have gotten away with it if it weren't for those meddling kids). And after going through this dance time and time again, there comes a point where giving any meaningful consideration to every idiot's claim of "ghosts!" when their house is just settling really isn't worth anyone's time.

Well, when a tool gets developed that's capable of collecting evidence of phenomenon that existing theories can't explain and that some theory about ghosts can, then we can start seriously discussing the matter. But as long as the noise being generated just amounts to "There may be ghosts out there, but we just can't detect them yet", any discussion about them is about as pointless as a discussion about the color of Russell's teapot. Not to mention if we fast-forward 1000 years, and it turns out that despite all the new tech there's still no evidence of ghosts, I'm sure there will still be people making the exact same claim. There comes a time when, barring dramatic new evidence coming to light, it's time to stop giving serious consideration to something for which evidence has repeatedly failed to be produced. And for the topic of ghosts, that time passed quite a while ago.

That millions of people were observing whatever it was they were observing would be a readily observable fact. The details of just what people were actually observing, determined through controlled observation, and putting forth and testing hypotheses on just what was occurring- that would be science.

Hi, professional scientist here (chemist). First off, what science actually involves is identifying an observed phenomenon, putting forth a predictive, falsifiable hypothesis that would explain the phenomenon, then putting that hypothesis to the test by seeing if the predictions it makes actually correspond to what is observed in experiments designed to test those predictions. Second, regardless of how many experiments and observations are consistent with the hypothesis it's still never proven (although after numerous such experiments the hypothesis will be regarded as having very strong supporting evidence, and it's predictions will widely be used towards practical purposes). Third, such a hypothesis can be disproved with only a single experiment; however, as long as the limits and where the hypothesis fails are understood it can still be useful (Newtonian mechanics has been disproved, but is still quite useful as long as it's used within the conditions where it's predictions are still valid). And finally, absence of evidence can serve as evidence of absence, provided there's enough of it. If I simply make the claim that rodents of unusual size don't exist because I've never seen one, that's not particularly strong evidence. However, if thousands of people scour the world over several decades looking for them and they all come up empty, that's much stronger evidence towards the hypothesis that they don't exist. Of course, that hypothesis could quickly be disproved if a rodent of unusual size suddenly jumps me, but that just goes back to what I said earlier and is precisely how science works.
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darthspudius: That is a very long post that just read in my mind "I believe in science, not ghosts and those that do are idiots!"

It just sounds as narrow minded as religious people regarding every subject known to man.
To state that one 'believes' in science is inappropriate. To believe in something would mean that you are lending credence to a pre-conceived notion. Science only offers a tenable hypothesis that is subject to veritable scrutiny.
Post edited April 02, 2014 by Lionel212008
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djranis: there is no such shit as ghosts, if there were bloody fukin murderers wouldn't run free
I missed this comment before... what the hell do you mean?!
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djranis: there is no such shit as ghosts, if there were bloody fukin murderers wouldn't run free
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darthspudius: I missed this comment before... what the hell do you mean?!
Don't know but I guess he means all victims would come back to exact revenge or at least denounce their murderers.
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darthspudius: Just asking out of curiosity after my friend asked me about the subject.
They don't exist except in movies or books but there they can be pretty spooky. A cultural meme so to speak.
I'm reading Harry Turtledoves "Wisdom of the Fox" right now, which has an interesting view on ghosts.
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darthspudius: That is a very long post that just read in my mind "I believe in science, not ghosts and those that do are idiots!"

It just sounds as narrow minded as religious people regarding every subject known to man.
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Lionel212008: To state that one 'believes' in science is inappropriate. To believe in something would mean that you are lending credence to a pre-conceived notion. Science only offers a tenable hypothesis that is subject to veritable scrutiny.
True so I'm sure darthspudius meant to say that is a very long post and he just read in his mind "I believe humans today have enough knowledge to use the scientific method to prove the existence of everything in this universe so if something can't be proven to be real today then it doesn't exist. And people who believe in something that doesn't exist are idiots." Yes, DarrkPhoenix is a narrow minded person it seems. Just as narrow minded as many religious people.

I've said this before in different words but I will say this again for those who have skipped past my previous posts.

The thought, we humans know enough today to be able to use the scientific method to prove the existence of everything in this universe is STUPID. There is no evidence to support we know all there is to know in order to use the scientific method to the prove the existence of everything in this universe. So an intelligent person who has never encountered ghosts would just keep an open mind and think, it is possible that ghosts are real.

I know we humans today DO NOT HAVE ENOUGH KNOWLEDGE to be able to use the scientific method to prove the existence of ghosts. Because I know ghosts(aka spirits) are real. Unfortunately I can't prove this. :( If I knew how to prove ghosts are real with the scientific method, I'd be famous.
Post edited April 02, 2014 by monkeydelarge
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monkeydelarge: [snip]
I was typing a looong post in response to yours, but really, it can't be better explained than this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSJElZwEI8o

it's about UFO sightings, but the general principle still applies. The key point here is verifiable evidence, and that means that I must be able to reproduce the same phenomenon; it doesn't matter if you're a liar or not, or if you were mistaken. Even if we agree that you witnessed a true ghost sighting, if you can't reproduce it or somehow "put it in a can", it can't be verified.

And really, please everybody stop saying "science doesn't know everything". Science, once and for all, is not a huge compilation of everything in existence, and it was never meant to be. It is a method for acquiring knowledege under certain specific circumstances, and you will never meet anyone more aware of the shortcomings and limitations of science that scientists themselves.
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monkeydelarge: [snip]
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svmariscal: I was typing a looong post in response to yours, but really, it can't be better explained than this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSJElZwEI8o

it's about UFO sightings, but the general principle still applies. The key point here is verifiable evidence, and that means that I must be able to reproduce the same phenomenon; it doesn't matter if you're a liar or not, or if you were mistaken. Even if we agree that you witnessed a true ghost sighting, if you can't reproduce it or somehow "put it in a can", it can't be verified.

And really, please everybody stop saying "science doesn't know everything". Science, once and for all, is not a huge compilation of everything in existence, and it was never meant to be. It is a method for acquiring knowledege under certain specific circumstances, and you will never meet anyone more aware of the shortcomings and limitations of science that scientists themselves.
I know it can't be verified. I also know science once and for all is not a huge compilation of everything in existence but people keep on treating it as such....
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monkeydelarge: I know it can't be verified. I also know science once and for all is not a huge compilation of everything in existence but people keep on treating it as such....
I guess there is a widespread misunderstanding on the workings and objectives of science. As the spiritualist topic seems to raise a certain emotional response, I've thought of another popular subject which I think it is very illustrative on how science works. Maybe some of you have heard about cold fusion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion

if you read the linked article, you'll notice how the claims of Pons and Fleischmann couldn't be reproduced by other groups and therefore the model is not accepted as a valid theory. You see how nobody said "you're a bunch of scammers!" but just "sorry, the results are not consistent" and that is enough; likewise, Pons and Fleischmann didn't try to defend their theory with "Please you have to believe us, we're honest!" because that's not how science works.

Will it be a valid theory someday?, well, there are still people working on it, so who knows.
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monkeydelarge: I know it can't be verified. I also know science once and for all is not a huge compilation of everything in existence but people keep on treating it as such....
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svmariscal: I guess there is a widespread misunderstanding on the workings and objectives of science. As the spiritualist topic seems to raise a certain emotional response, I've thought of another popular subject which I think it is very illustrative on how science works. Maybe some of you have heard about cold fusion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_fusion

if you read the linked article, you'll notice how the claims of Pons and Fleischmann couldn't be reproduced by other groups and therefore the model is not accepted as a valid theory. You see how nobody said "you're a bunch of scammers!" but just "sorry, the results are not consistent" and that is enough; likewise, Pons and Fleischmann didn't try to defend their theory with "Please you have to believe us, we're honest!" because that's not how science works.

Will it be a valid theory someday?, well, there are still people working on it, so who knows.
There is something terribly frightening about the sense of 'quaintness' that reality espouses. When I speak of reality, I speak of the reality that our finite senses can conceivably fathom or perceive. The phenomenon of us seeing 'ghosts' or 'apparitions' may have something to do with that what eludes our senses. There may well be a prosaic explanation for these or there is something more sinister at play.

More often than not, science requires that we explore unknown frontiers and at times exploring the unknown may be akin to that of opening a Pandora's box.
Post edited April 02, 2014 by Lionel212008
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Cormoran: So you have no actual answe. Talk in circles all you want, that's what it comes down to.
No, I have no answers, never said I did.

My only point is that science, while great at many things and useful for the examination of anything, cannot answer everything.

Haven't been on in awhile, sorry for late response, and if I was a little short the last time I was on. Reason, but not excuse, was it was very late after a day spent killing a bottle of cognac; my apologies.

Enjoy.
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DarrkPhoenix: There are certainly many unanswered questions in science. It's why people like me have jobs. However, ghosts aren't an unanswered question- they are just an idea some people have put forth then time and time again failed to produce any evidence to support. There isn't some indication that they exist but with lots of unanswered questions about the details- there's just lots of wild speculation (with absolutely no supporting evidence) by people who don't seem to even know how to put forth a scientific hypothesis, let alone test it.

As for not being able to observe certain things, while we didn't have the tools to observe the details of certain things in the past (and that's a never-ending process), we still could certain observe the overall effects (by virtue of those things being able to effect us). Science progresses through the identification of phenomenon that are not adequately explained by existing scientific theories. However, for this to happen you first need to actually observe such a phenomenon (and not in a "check out this shaky-cam footage!!!" kind of way), then rigorously test ways in which existing theories might explain the phenomenon. And if all the existing theories then fail to adequately explain it, only then do you get to start on the real challenge of trying to come up with novel hypotheses on what might be going on.

However, people making claims about ghosts rarely seem to have a phenomenon to observe to begin with. Then in the cases where there may indeed be such a phenomenon and it's rigorously tested it seems that invariably the phenomenon either can't be reproduced under controlled conditions, or it ends up being explained just fine by existing scientific theories (or it's just some douche-bag in a rubber mask who would have gotten away with it if it weren't for those meddling kids). And after going through this dance time and time again, there comes a point where giving any meaningful consideration to every idiot's claim of "ghosts!" when their house is just settling really isn't worth anyone's time.

Well, when a tool gets developed that's capable of collecting evidence of phenomenon that existing theories can't explain and that some theory about ghosts can, then we can start seriously discussing the matter. But as long as the noise being generated just amounts to "There may be ghosts out there, but we just can't detect them yet", any discussion about them is about as pointless as a discussion about the color of Russell's teapot. Not to mention if we fast-forward 1000 years, and it turns out that despite all the new tech there's still no evidence of ghosts, I'm sure there will still be people making the exact same claim. There comes a time when, barring dramatic new evidence coming to light, it's time to stop giving serious consideration to something for which evidence has repeatedly failed to be produced. And for the topic of ghosts, that time passed quite a while ago.

That millions of people were observing whatever it was they were observing would be a readily observable fact. The details of just what people were actually observing, determined through controlled observation, and putting forth and testing hypotheses on just what was occurring- that would be science.

Hi, professional scientist here (chemist). First off, what science actually involves is identifying an observed phenomenon, putting forth a predictive, falsifiable hypothesis that would explain the phenomenon, then putting that hypothesis to the test by seeing if the predictions it makes actually correspond to what is observed in experiments designed to test those predictions. Second, regardless of how many experiments and observations are consistent with the hypothesis it's still never proven (although after numerous such experiments the hypothesis will be regarded as having very strong supporting evidence, and it's predictions will widely be used towards practical purposes). Third, such a hypothesis can be disproved with only a single experiment; however, as long as the limits and where the hypothesis fails are understood it can still be useful (Newtonian mechanics has been disproved, but is still quite useful as long as it's used within the conditions where it's predictions are still valid). And finally, absence of evidence can serve as evidence of absence, provided there's enough of it. If I simply make the claim that rodents of unusual size don't exist because I've never seen one, that's not particularly strong evidence. However, if thousands of people scour the world over several decades looking for them and they all come up empty, that's much stronger evidence towards the hypothesis that they don't exist. Of course, that hypothesis could quickly be disproved if a rodent of unusual size suddenly jumps me, but that just goes back to what I said earlier and is precisely how science works.
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darthspudius: That is a very long post that just read in my mind "I believe in science, not ghosts and those that do are idiots!"

It just sounds as narrow minded as religious people regarding every subject known to man.
He went out of his way to show how a hypothesis MUST be falsifiable with his anecdote about large rodents. That's about as open minded as you can be. Bias and science don't mix well. I'm surprised DarrkPhoenix isn't banging his head against the wall after trying to explain the scientific method here. There is no bias and no "faith" when you use the scientific method. When you're done testing your hypothesis your results are not infallible, as DarrkPhoenix also explains. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
I don't especially believe in ghosts, however the strangest thing happened while at my brother's house a few years ago.

My brother and his family left town on vacation; my girlfriend and I were left to take care of the house and the dog. The first day I went down into the basement and noticed that the kid's clothes were left thrown around - my brother has four kids and they all left in a hectic rush, so you get the picture.

The next day I went downstairs, and strangely... the clothes were folded neatly and placed in little piles. Nobody was there besides my girlfriend and myself, and no-one else had a key. My girlfriend did not fold them (she doesn't even pickup after herself at our own home), and she didn't even go into the basement for the short time she was there, as she was working a lot that week.

Also, one night I took the dog downstairs to put her in the cage - the cage, strangely... was closed and locked. I was the only one who took her out each morning, and I never locked the cage while it was empty, as that wouldn't make sense to do so.

I mentioned this and apparently my brother's mother-in-law (who babysits the kids) has been claiming there is a ghost in the basement for years now.
Post edited April 19, 2014 by djdarko