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General discussion (archive)old rpgs and bad combat(114 posts)solved(114 posts)solved
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This is my favourite topic
Posted November 15, 2012
You don't need a credit card to buy games on GOG, if you've got a bank account, you can use PayPal. If you don't have a bank account but you have real life friends with a GOG account, you could give them the cash and they could then buy you the games you want and "gift" them to your acount.

As for your problem with older CRPG, like others have said before, if you don't like the combat in these games per se, sadly it's an important part in all of them, and often more dominant than the stories, which aren't all that special in the majority of cases (excluding Planescape Torment which you already played through). If it's just the constant missing that bothers you - while it's always a possibility in these games, if it happens as often as you describe, it sounds as if you're building inadequate characters. And I think that's very likely if you don't have zero knowledge about D&D. A certain familiarity with D&D rules can really make a difference here, even for the games who don't use it, as many work similarly. The problem is that there are several different sets of D&D rules used by games, from D&D 1.0 to AD&D 2nd edition, D&D 3 and 3.5 and so on ...

Btw, what are the other four classic RPGs you tried? I believe you only mentioned Fallout and Divine Divinity? Have you already tried Neverwinter Nights? It suffers from the same hit and miss issue if you've got a bad character build, but the good thing is that it's a lot easier and more beginner friendly than the older D&D games, and if you've got the chance to play it online, you can easily find other players who'd be willing to teach you the D&D rules while playing with you. You might also be able to join an actual D&D session with other players and a live Dungeon Master; not sure if some also offer these things for beginners, to introduce them to the game. Another advantage are the myriads of user-created adventures freely available for it, some with fantastic stories and less hack-and-slash than the official campaign or other classic CRPGs.

Lastly, there are several classic RPGs with a bit less complex stat systems and more player controlled combat action. You already played Bloodlines, what about Arx Fatalis and Gothic (the latter one is not that easy in the beginning though). Have you tried Morrowind (personally I don't like it, but it's a classic and more action-oriented) or Oblivion? Dark Messiah of Might and Magic? Did you try Nox? Or classic tile-based dungeon crawlers like the Eye of the Beholder series, Lands of Lore, Stonekeep (these are based on similar hit-and-miss systems as other D&D games, but they have less stats and skills to keep an eye on and are easier to understand)?
Post edited November 15, 2012 by Leroux
Posted November 15, 2012
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Coelocanth: SV, have you played Kingdoms of Amalur? I'm playing it now and I have to say I'm liking it as much as, possibly more than, Skyrim. I'd put that one in the list as well.
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StingingVelvet: No, this year it's been hard to get around to new stuff because of my volunteering. I plan to get to Amalur and Risen 2 when I get home. It's kind of MMO-like though isn't it?
I've heard that it's fun at first but gets MMO'ish kinda fast. But better than Skyrim? How dare you, sir/mam. Punch yourself in the face, immediately!

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Leroux: Have you already tried Neverwinter Nights? It suffers from the same hit and miss issue if you've got a bad character build, but the good thing is that it's a lot easier and more beginner friendly than the older D&D games, and if you've got the chance to play it online, you can easily find other players who'd be willing to teach you the D&D rules while playing with you. You might also be able to join an actual D&D session with other players and a live Dungeon Master; not sure if some also offer these things for beginners, to introduce them to the game. Another advantage are the myriads of user-created adventures freely available for it, some with fantastic stories and less hack-and-slash than the official campaign or other classic CRPGs.
I'm kind of a D&D outcast because of this, but I loved NWN. It was my introduction to the D&D universe, so maybe that's why. I got a late start on those games since I didn't begin enjoying Western RPG's until I was in my 20's. For some reason many of the classic D&D gamers I knew had nothing but bad things to say about NWN. At any rate, I wanted to comment about how much fun playing that game online was. There were a few persistent world servers that were quite large and had great playerbase and active dungeon masters that were always willing to help out. It was an absolute blast. If anyone still plays that game online, I'd absolutely recommend that as a good way for someone to get started on those kinds of games since there'd be plenty of players willing to help.
Post edited November 15, 2012 by Qwertyman
Posted November 15, 2012
My contribution:

1) I know from experience that the mechanics of some games (Icewind Dale, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Fallout) are explained inadequately in-game, if at all. I suppose these are games from the era when you were expected to read the manual before playing. If you don't know what the rules of the game are (THAC0, AC, DC, saving throw and what have you), you are doomed to cock up your character creation more or less. Learning the rules can be arduous, but thankfully they usually boil down to basics that are just expanded on as the game progresses, so you won't have to learn stuff as you're going along.

2) D&D is appallingly difficult the first one or two levels because you will have so few hit points that almost everything has a decent chance to go one-hit-knockout on your ass unless you're a dwarven fighter with 20 constitution or something. Once you level up once or twice, Baldur's Gate, for example, becomes much more manageable. Low-level wizards are pretty pathetic as well since they have very few spells per day, so you end up sleeping, and consequently being ambushed by gibberling hordes, a lot. Not to mention their hopeless d4 hit die.

3) The way Wizards, Druids and Clerics cast spells can be a bit flummoxing for first-timers, especially since (you guessed it), it's poorly explained in-game. It's perfectly possible for you to prepare a bunch of fireballs only to find yourself in a situation where the fireball does bugger all and you'd actually need some summoning spells instead, so you have to assign the new spells and go to sleep again. I'm not saying you should avoid playing a Wizard, Cleric or Druid altogether, but the Sorcerer is undeniably easier first time round if less versatile. On the plus side, they depend on high Charisma so you can use them as a party chairman.

4) Often, especially at higher levels, the combat simply doesn't flow in D&D games, especially with parties of five or six. The party AI is rather poor, so you'll be constantly mashing the spacebar to assign new targets for your tanks and moving your invisible Rogue beyond enemy lines so you can aim spells that have a longer range than your mages can see. I quite like the tactical aspect, actually. Fallout has less complex battles, which might be more appealling to some people.
Posted November 15, 2012
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StingingVelvet: No, this year it's been hard to get around to new stuff because of my volunteering. I plan to get to Amalur and Risen 2 when I get home. It's kind of MMO-like though isn't it?
Honestly, I don't find it any more so than Skyrim (but I'm not sure exactly what MMO-like means to everyone). It's got tons of sidequests, very much like Skyrim (and while many of them are 'fetch' or 'kill this' type quests... so are Skyrim's). There are factions with associated quests, there are a decent variety of monsters, the DLC I played (Teeth of Naros) was pretty beefy, you can craft, you get houses for storage (which you can pay to have upgraded, just like in Skyrim), and the world is huge.

It's definitely an action RPG, with a ton of loot (just like Skyrim) but I find the combat fun and there are enough different moves available to make it interesting. You've got skill trees that you can choose from freely, split into Warrior, Rogue, and Mage (just like in Skyrim) with higher tiered skill/abilities requiring either specific character levels, prior investment in a lower tier, or a specific number of points invested in the class tree itself.

Quests givers and objectives are marked with those bloody exclamation marks, but those can be turned off (there are still markers on the minimap though). You can fast travel - or not - as you choose, just like Skyrim.

Most named NPCs (and there are quite a number of them) have several dialog options to get more info if you choose. There are books, scrolls, dialog, and standing stones (can't recall what they're called at the moment) that give more info about the world (when you click on the stones, you get narrated diaolog that tells a short story or part of one. They come in 'sets' that give you a small bonus if you find and click on the whole set).

About the biggest difference I can think of offhand is that gold is not in short supply in Amalur. Merchants don't have a gold limit (at least not that I've found), so you're not constantly either leaving gear behind, storing it, or destroying it because you can't find enough merchants to buy your stuff.

You can break gear down to get components for crafting, you can find crafting components, and you can buy some as well. Items can come with sockets to upgrade with gems.

The environments are very nice with a great use of color in many areas. It's really quite a well done game. Honestly, I don't see how this one is so hugely different from Skyrim. Don't get me wrong, I put around 130 hours into Skyrim and I love it, but I'm playing Amalur just as enthusiastically.
Post edited November 15, 2012 by Coelocanth
Posted November 15, 2012
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Coelocanth: SV, have you played Kingdoms of Amalur? I'm playing it now and I have to say I'm liking it as much as, possibly more than, Skyrim. I'd put that one in the list as well.
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StingingVelvet: No, this year it's been hard to get around to new stuff because of my volunteering. I plan to get to Amalur and Risen 2 when I get home. It's kind of MMO-like though isn't it?
Apparently so, and I've also read that the combat is pretty shallow and repetitive. However, the times when it brings plot to the forefront are really meant to shine.
Posted November 15, 2012
From what I`ve gathered, the narrative is the most important thing for you, as you yourself have stated, and you also enjoyed Torment, which is basically a point`n`click game in RPG disguise. In this case, I would actually advise you to avoid CRPGs, as, in my opinion, their strong point is not the narrative, but rather character building. Finding the right builds for yourself, and seeing how the game world reacts to the character(s) you`ve built and what and how you can achieve in that game world with these builds is where the fun is at in these games.

I would suggest that you should try the adventure game genre if you want a game that is more focused on narrative. There are many good adventure games on GOG, like The Last Express, the Gabriel Knight and the Broken Sword series, just to name a few.
Post edited November 15, 2012 by szablev
Posted November 15, 2012
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szablev: In this case, I would actually advise you to avoid CRPGs, as, in my opinion, their strong point is not the narrative, but rather character building. Finding the right builds for yourself, and seeing how the game world reacts to the character(s) you`ve built and what and how you can achieve in that game world with these builds is where the fun is at in these games.
Those are exactly the reasons why I like RPGs, I enjoy the math behind the game. I never understood why people would play an RPG for the story, because the story is never really that good (no, not even in Torment or Deus Ex). That's not to say I don't like story-driven RPGs, but the story should be setting the frame and you are the one filling the canvas, the story shouldn't be the reason why you play the game to begin with. In that case you might as well just skip the gameplay and watch the cutscenes on YouTube (I whish I had done that for Torment as the gameplay was just tedious, slow and there was no challenge in anything). On the other hand I don't like i either if the game is just number-crunching for the sake of number-crunching, there still needs to be a balance between immersion and mechanics.
Posted November 15, 2012
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KyleKatarn: Pirate them. Have your friend make copies on a usb stick and send it to you and then offer to give him a six-pack of beer. Either one of those cases does not make GOG use its resources to get the game to you. If your friend doesn't want to take the time or spend the money to burn a CD, why should he think GOG should use its servers and bandwidth? Even if it only costs them pennies, it still costs. You're not their customer.

edit: Then, when you find games you really enjoy, you might feel like buying boxed versions of the game to feel like you have something to hold and show off. Or better yet, fund future games that want to see make it on Kickstarter :)
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deamento: but i don't want to pirate games!
My take, you already are pirating games. It doesn't matter if you download a game from a torrent from piratebay or by "borrowing" a game from a friend by downloading it from his account. If you download a game that you do not own, it is pirating.

You've already received some excellent suggestions for how to get around your restriction of not having a credit card. If you want a game from GOG, there are ways you can get it.

By the way, I agree with others in that if you're missing all the time in combat, it's a combination of a low level character and a poor build. Missing frequently in early levels is not uncommon in Fallout, but if you built your character correctly, after a while, you'll be hitting more often than missing.
Post edited November 15, 2012 by yyahoo
Posted November 15, 2012
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deamento: but i don't want to pirate games!
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yyahoo: My take, you already are pirating games. It doesn't matter if you download a game from a torrent from piratebay or by "borrowing" a game from a friend by downloading it from his account. If you download a game that you do not own, it is pirating.
yes i know you're right but i'm saying that i don't want to pirate OTHER games. i am aware now that borrowing a game on gog is the same as pirating but it's something i've only done once.
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szablev: From what I`ve gathered, the narrative is the most important thing for you, as you yourself have stated, and you also enjoyed Torment, which is basically a point`n`click game in RPG disguise. In this case, I would actually advise you to avoid CRPGs, as, in my opinion, their strong point is not the narrative, but rather character building. Finding the right builds for yourself, and seeing how the game world reacts to the character(s) you`ve built and what and how you can achieve in that game world with these builds is where the fun is at in these games.

I would suggest that you should try the adventure game genre if you want a game that is more focused on narrative. There are many good adventure games on GOG, like The Last Express, the Gabriel Knight and the Broken Sword series, just to name a few.
actually this was something i thought i said but apparently I didn't, the narritive is just the framework of the game. what i like about crpgs is how my characters interact with each other and the world around them.
as for adventure games, i despise them because i'm no good at them so for me it's looking at the screen until i find something to rub it against something else
Post edited November 15, 2012 by deamento
Posted November 15, 2012
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szablev: From what I`ve gathered, the narrative is the most important thing for you, as you yourself have stated, and you also enjoyed Torment, which is basically a point`n`click game in RPG disguise. In this case, I would actually advise you to avoid CRPGs, as, in my opinion, their strong point is not the narrative, but rather character building. Finding the right builds for yourself, and seeing how the game world reacts to the character(s) you`ve built and what and how you can achieve in that game world with these builds is where the fun is at in these games.

I would suggest that you should try the adventure game genre if you want a game that is more focused on narrative. There are many good adventure games on GOG, like The Last Express, the Gabriel Knight and the Broken Sword series, just to name a few.
+1 to that.

Yes, combat is the heart and soul of these games. If you don't enjoy combat then they are not for you.
Posted November 15, 2012
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Coelocanth: ...
Thanks for all the info! I will put Amalur higher on my to-do list when I get back than it was. Dishonored is still first though, as I am a Thief and Deus Ex superfan.
Posted November 15, 2012
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Leroux: You don't need a credit card to buy games on GOG, if you've got a bank account, you can use PayPal. If you don't have a bank account but you have real life friends with a GOG account, you could give them the cash and they could then buy you the games you want and "gift" them to your acount.

As for your problem with older CRPG, like others have said before, if you don't like the combat in these games per se, sadly it's an important part in all of them, and often more dominant than the stories, which aren't all that special in the majority of cases (excluding Planescape Torment which you already played through). If it's just the constant missing that bothers you - while it's always a possibility in these games, if it happens as often as you describe, it sounds as if you're building inadequate characters. And I think that's very likely if you don't have zero knowledge about D&D. A certain familiarity with D&D rules can really make a difference here, even for the games who don't use it, as many work similarly. The problem is that there are several different sets of D&D rules used by games, from D&D 1.0 to AD&D 2nd edition, D&D 3 and 3.5 and so on ...

Btw, what are the other four classic RPGs you tried? I believe you only mentioned Fallout and Divine Divinity? Have you already tried Neverwinter Nights? It suffers from the same hit and miss issue if you've got a bad character build, but the good thing is that it's a lot easier and more beginner friendly than the older D&D games, and if you've got the chance to play it online, you can easily find other players who'd be willing to teach you the D&D rules while playing with you. You might also be able to join an actual D&D session with other players and a live Dungeon Master; not sure if some also offer these things for beginners, to introduce them to the game. Another advantage are the myriads of user-created adventures freely available for it, some with fantastic stories and less hack-and-slash than the official campaign or other classic CRPGs.

Lastly, there are several classic RPGs with a bit less complex stat systems and more player controlled combat action. You already played Bloodlines, what about Arx Fatalis and Gothic (the latter one is not that easy in the beginning though). Have you tried Morrowind (personally I don't like it, but it's a classic and more action-oriented) or Oblivion? Dark Messiah of Might and Magic? Did you try Nox? Or classic tile-based dungeon crawlers like the Eye of the Beholder series, Lands of Lore, Stonekeep (these are based on similar hit-and-miss systems as other D&D games, but they have less stats and skills to keep an eye on and are easier to understand)?
i'm too young to own a paypal account and so are my friends (not that they even have gog accounts!)

1) i am indeed unfamiliar (if we're being generous) with the d&d rules. i am now well aware that i build my characters wrong, the way i build my characters is always focused on dialogue etc. and not combat. to be honest i have no clue why i do that.

2)
sacred:gold, this was the last game i played before i came here and it didn't last very long (1 minute after character creation) because i got scared away by the stats etc.
this is a big problem for me and crpgs

fallout 2: this lasted about 15 minutes, i was in the first room of the first temple (i think it was a temple but i'm not sure.) i spent 10 minutes beating on the first enemy until he almost killed me, i fled and got killed by another one so i ragequit.(note that i built my character with a lot of charisma and intellect and my perks were spend on things like good natured etc.)

baldursgate: i don't know how long i played, i built my character went outside and quit because (just like in sacred) the all these stats scare me!

neverwinter nights: this game was hard as nails for me and was also the only crpg i recreated my character, i killed the 2nd creature and then i quit for some reason. i have no clue why

3) arx fatalis, gothic and nox are all on my wish list
as for the other games, i'm open to the possibility that they're good but I don't know how to get them.

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szablev: From what I`ve gathered, the narrative is the most important thing for you, as you yourself have stated, and you also enjoyed Torment, which is basically a point`n`click game in RPG disguise. In this case, I would actually advise you to avoid CRPGs, as, in my opinion, their strong point is not the narrative, but rather character building. Finding the right builds for yourself, and seeing how the game world reacts to the character(s) you`ve built and what and how you can achieve in that game world with these builds is where the fun is at in these games.

I would suggest that you should try the adventure game genre if you want a game that is more focused on narrative. There are many good adventure games on GOG, like The Last Express, the Gabriel Knight and the Broken Sword series, just to name a few.
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grinninglich: +1 to that.

Yes, combat is the heart and soul of these games. If you don't enjoy combat then they are not for you.
i got it wrong, i MIGHT enjoy the combat but i can't because i don't understand the mechanics of DnD
Post edited November 15, 2012 by deamento
Posted November 15, 2012
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deamento: i got it wrong, i MIGHT enjoy the combat but i can't because i don't understand the mechanics of DnD
Then, search for the info, learn them and ta da you can play. It is not rocket science. It is not that hard. In fact it is very entertaining to learn these rules and think of ways to create good and diverse characters by using the rules.

Some information + some creativity = Hours and hours and hours of fun.

Not every game uses D&D btw. For Baldurs Gate it uses the 2nd edition of AD&D. You can read the manual of BG to find out all the spells, stats, combat system and THAC0 works. Don't forget to open the extra statics from options for combat.
Post edited November 15, 2012 by grinninglich
Posted November 15, 2012
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deamento: i got it wrong, i MIGHT enjoy the combat but i can't because i don't understand the mechanics of DnD
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grinninglich: Then, search for the info, learn them and ta da you can play. It is not rocket science. It is not that hard. In fact it is very entertaining to learn these rules and think of ways to create good and diverse characters by using the rules.

Some information + some creativity = Hours and hours and hours of fun.
i can certainly agree with you on that. but i don't know where to look and i am aware that there are mutliple editions (i guess) and i'm not sure what games uses what edition.
and i don't have the BG manual!

also to awnser your previous question i'm 14
Post edited November 15, 2012 by deamento
Posted November 15, 2012
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grinninglich: Then, search for the info, learn them and ta da you can play. It is not rocket science. It is not that hard. In fact it is very entertaining to learn these rules and think of ways to create good and diverse characters by using the rules.

Some information + some creativity = Hours and hours and hours of fun.
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deamento: i can certainly agree with you on that. but i don't know where to look and i am aware that there are mutliple editions (i guess) and i'm not sure what games uses what edition.
and i don't have the BG manual!

also to awnser your previous question i'm 14
Start reading Baldur's Gate manual.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)old rpgs and bad combat(114 posts)solved(114 posts)solved
(114 posts)solved