I didn't say the death penalty solves anything, it's just what some fucking deserve ! Why is this so complicated? When the fuck did wanting to torture a guy who goes into a school and kills two dozen 6-year olds become something abnormal ?!?!

Killing and torture becomes abnormal when a society sanction it and treats it as a normal way of taking care of things.

I got a plane to catch otherwise I might have. I once was up on all the death penalty stats, but for the most part it just looked like it causes way more harm than good. Getting payback sounds like justice, but from what I remember it leaves the people that watch it empty, and unable to feel closure. Thats not justice. Nothing is righted, there is just more wrong, hurt, and emptiness when its over.

It's sounds like a backwards cliché, but the only people that really emotionally survive stuff like this tend to be the ones willing to forgive.

I think you might want to edit that...

What? My english failing me again?

Yup, you basically said it becomes abnormal when it becomes normal.

You wrote that "Killing and torture become abnormal when a society...treats it as a normal way of taking care of things."

Guess we have to start arming police officers.

Ah. What I mean is that it's a abnormal thing when something abnormal gets a ok note so it swings to being normal. Or something. Hopefully SOMEONE understands what I'm trying to say. :P

Both my fiancee's father and my own father have permits to carry, and carry on a regular basis. They are both right-wing republicans. They are both firm supporters of the NRA. They could be considered the "crazy gun nuts" that everyone seems to despise. But they take the whole thing very VERY seriously and put a huge emphasis on safety, proper training, and the idea that lethal force is only ever an absolute last resort. They do not carry guns to shoot anyone and everyone that they deem a threat. They don't carry them because they want to be action heroes. They carry them first as a possible nonlethal deterrent to violence, and second as a way of dealing with a violent threat when all other methods fail. And neither of them ever want to be in a situation where they have to use the guns they carry. Agree or disagree (and I know pretty much everyone is going to disagree), my point is that not everyone who supports gun rights are the sort of immature violence-loving hillbillies you characterize them as.

I live right in the heart of the stereo type. In fact my house used to have people shooting guns next door that were telling the police to screw off because they were Technically in the country because the suburb was across the county line. I now live next door to a gun range that I can hear around the clock. A range many of my old co-workers used to frequent. One where someone actually decided to shoot someone they know at. I've seen the magazines and the jokes write themselves. I've also had the conversations about protecting a persons rights and "being ready," and "detouring violence," and all of that. But I see those people talking and 90% its like they are saying something they want to believe more than they do. It's often angry, self entitled, and down right creepy and I can't help feeling like all of its all about people wanting to believe something more than they really do, so they rationalize it. I also cant help but feel like if many people were really honest with themselves they would put their toys down, and realize they were hurting the world as a whole with the attitude.

Now I don't know your family, and I have known some very nice people that loved guns. Guns don't mean someone is a hillbilly or stupid, or a violence lover, but that very serious mindset you describe is basically just what I am talking about. That kind of talk makes me nervous because I'm not sure its as logical or as functional as the people using are desperate to believe it is. And moreover I am unsure why they need it to be true so bad that people will often build and entire way of life around it.

I don't want to be too hard on you. On an international website guns aren't going to be popular making you a bit of a minority. As someone that has lived in Texas, Kansas, and Missouri I can say my feelings are unpopular, and I tend to be a minority.

Well since I've never lived in Texas, Kansas, or Missouri, and you've never met my family, I guess there's nothing to discuss. I personally believe the sincerity of what they say, you do not. I see the whole gun issue as a very complicated issue indeed, with valid points on both sides and no one good solution. I just wanted to point out that your characterization in your original post wasn't completely fair.

Thanks, for a couple reasons:

A) Firearms ownership does not make one a "gun nut". Maybe one hunts, maybe one participates in target shooting, maybe one collects them. Enthusiasm and a high level of knowledge doesn't make one nutty, unless we also don't mind being labeled "video game nuts" when used as a term of unthinking fanaticism.

B) The emphasis should be on safe and responsible ownership and use, and I'm ecstatic that your family members give firearms ownership the serious consideration it demands.

That's how I feel, and I really don't understand where gooberking is coming from. I don't understand how "takes gun ownership seriously" equates "is deluded, angry, and self-entitled." But I also haven't lived in the states he has, nor have I talked to the people he has. It's impossible to really debate the issue without having some common ground... or in this case, common acquaintances.

With a traveling job that had my all over the country for 11 years (I'm now Midwest-bound, for the most part), I'll tell you from personal exposure that there are distinctly different attitudes about certain matters wherever one goes. That's not to say that one area is fundamentally better or worse than another, because it often comes down to personal taste, but that those particular firearms (and what one might label as "anti-government survivalist") attitudes gooberking describes are definitely more prevalent in the areas he speaks of than in, say, Seattle.

At the end of it all, firearms ownership is a very serious thing and people need to approach it with more respect than the average schmo might be giving it. This is evidenced by Sandy Hook, where proper storage would have prevented this entire event. Sad that a seemingly minor slip-up of personal responsibility leads to all of this.