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Crassmaster: Somewhere, Woody Harrelson's character from Zombieland is crying.
This was my first thought too, lol.
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muttly13: Laughable. But that not withstanding... Very little of the workforce is actually union. However, since the union wont take an 8% pay cut (whatever, I wouldnt want to take it either, not the point) everyone is out of job. So in the end, the Union Bosses represent a tiny portion of the workforce but have penalized them all. Is there blame on both sides? Sure. but there was a refused offer on the table, instead nobody goes to work Monday. Happy Thanksgiving!
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TwilightBard: The problem seems that they had already taken a previous pay cut, and the management gave themselves a pretty large pay raise. It's the kind of thing that muddies the water in a negotiation. They were stubborn, probably too stubborn, but you can't lay this all at the union's feet.
It's probably not hardly at all the union's fault. A local teacher's union took a pay cut to avoid any layoffs in a local district 2 years ago and they got layoffs anyway. The board came back the next year and said there was a mandatory 1300 USD per month paycut (on top of what they'd taken and gotten fucked over on the previous year). They voted to strike and kids in that district very nearly didn't get schooling for several weeks.

What you don't see, when you see these dressed up anti-union slander pieces, is the long line of concessions, butt-fucks, and other shit eating the union members had to put up with for years before it gets to this point. This is while management typically gets big pats on the back from the board, votes themselves pay raises while giving the absolute minimum mandated raise to workers, and generally act like absolute, self entitled fucks.

Then the union votes to take one for the team to fuck management. Then the union won't bend, because management has cried wolf so many times to get what they want and then give themselves pay raises that the union won't believe it.

Trust me, the teamsters union is pissed at the bakers union, but the bakers have fucking had it. Given how poorly bakers tend to get paid country wide, how expensive their schooling can be, and the lack of benefits, horrible hours, etc. I can't say I blame them for saying "fuck off". The bakers union members may barely be making ends meet while the teamsters union membership may be marginally better off.
Post edited November 16, 2012 by orcishgamer
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TwilightBard: The problem seems that they had already taken a previous pay cut, and the management gave themselves a pretty large pay raise. It's the kind of thing that muddies the water in a negotiation. They were stubborn, probably too stubborn, but you can't lay this all at the union's feet.
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muttly13: And I have not. I am happy to place blame all over the place. Quite clearly I pointed that the workers are the ones who will pay the price here. Not Management or Union. And the teamsters union for example ratified the offer. Only the bakers union denied it at the 92% because they are already low paid.

EDIT: Even the other unions know what sunk this... http://money.cnn.com/2012/11/16/news/companies/hostess-closing/index.html?source=yahoo_hosted
Dude, do you even know what the point of a strike is? You're playing chicken and if you're not willing to see the company close its doors, you're not fucking doing it right. The bakers get shit pay, they can get shit pay elsewhere, probably at whatever company buys these factories.

In Argentina I believe the employees actually bought their bread factory from the government (who held it for debts or some such) and made it into a super successful co-op business. The guy running the business and the books takes home the same pay as the line workers and they are all better off. It doesn't have to be tragedy, we just thrive on the tragic in the US, when shit challenges our world view of capitalism we'll do the shittiest thing possible to cling to it. Pathetic...

EDIT: What's more, it wasn't just a salary cut, they were cutting pensions AND health care at the same time. Characterizing it as a mere "8%" is disingenuous at best.
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infinite9: There needs to be an investigation concerning the bakers' union leadership. This might be the same union that was responsible for the demise of several smaller baked goods companies years ago including one based in central Pennsylvania called the Yoch Bakery Company. The union leadership had made a deal years ago with larger companies to crush the smaller ones by inducing strikes and making demands that only the larger competitors could afford.

That being said, I would not be surprised if the union leaders collaborated with Hostess's rivals. There needs to be an investigation.

This is one of the reasons why I feel that any unionization and collective bargaining should only get done on a local and voluntary basis (private sector only of course while public sector unions can go to hell).

Now I need to find a way to stock up on those chocolate-filled twinkies if they still have them at the grocery store.
Yeah, it was totally those union guys doing this rather than these fucks (that actually own Hostess): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripplewood_Holdings
Post edited November 16, 2012 by orcishgamer
What's a twinkie?
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Crassmaster: Somewhere, Woody Harrelson's character from Zombieland is crying.
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orcishgamer: This was my first thought too, lol.
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TwilightBard: The problem seems that they had already taken a previous pay cut, and the management gave themselves a pretty large pay raise. It's the kind of thing that muddies the water in a negotiation. They were stubborn, probably too stubborn, but you can't lay this all at the union's feet.
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orcishgamer: It's probably not hardly at all the union's fault. A local teacher's union took a pay cut to avoid any layoffs in a local district 2 years ago and they got layoffs anyway. The board came back the next year and said there was a mandatory 1300 USD per month paycut (on top of what they'd taken and gotten fucked over on the previous year). They voted to strike and kids in that district very nearly didn't get schooling for several weeks.

What you don't see, when you see these dressed up anti-union slander pieces, is the long line of concessions, butt-fucks, and other shit eating the union members had to put up with for years before it gets to this point. This is while management typically gets big pats on the back from the board, votes themselves pay raises while giving the absolute minimum mandated raise to workers, and generally act like absolute, self entitled fucks.

Then the union votes to take one for the team to fuck management. Then the union won't bend, because management has cried wolf so many times to get what they want and then give themselves pay raises that the union won't believe it.

Trust me, the teamsters union is pissed at the bakers union, but the bakers have fucking had it. Given how poorly bakers tend to get paid country wide, how expensive their schooling can be, and the lack of benefits, horrible hours, etc. I can't say I blame them for saying "fuck off". The bakers union members may barely be making ends meet while the teamsters union membership may be marginally better off.
Pretty much. I admit it's easy for me to say they were stubborn when I don't know all of the details (What little I have has actually proven to be hard for me to find numbers for quickly), but in the long run, I sympathize with them. It sounds like a crappy position to have to be in, and the fact that people are pointing to large raises in management does give me reason to believe that the company was crying wolf to try to cut down on labor costs.

As far as unions go, I can see both the good and the bad, and I generally take their side. It's become too easy to fire people and cut wages as short term solutions to cutting costs and raising stock prices (Thus getting the upper management higher bonuses and pay because they can now afford it easier).
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orcishgamer: What's more, it wasn't just a salary cut, they were cutting pensions AND health care at the same time. Characterizing it as a mere "8%" is disingenuous at best.
And leaving out the detail about execs giving themselves an 80% raise also seriously skews the truth of the matter.
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Antimateria: What's a twinkie?
Forget that, Zingers and those fruit pies were both better!:)
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orcishgamer: What's more, it wasn't just a salary cut, they were cutting pensions AND health care at the same time. Characterizing it as a mere "8%" is disingenuous at best.
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Darling_Jimmy: And leaving out the detail about execs giving themselves an 80% raise also seriously skews the truth of the matter.
Agreed, if it's austerity time "for the good of the company" then it's the time to lead by example. I don't know if it's memory playing tricks on me or not, but it seems to me that there was a time when real leaders knew that, now so-called leaders buy Ferrari's or grandstand in congress...

Seriously, I'd go one further than Steve Jobs (who's a fucking douche, anyway, long live Woz!), take a 1 dollar a year salary AND THEN file with the SEC to sell as much of my own options as was possible and safe in order to help fund necessary employee benefits.

I'd get my multi-million salary back when the company was healthy again and my employees were getting pay increases and retirement.
Post edited November 16, 2012 by orcishgamer
I can't take full credit for this, only the wording:

Is Hostess too tasty to fail? I can almost taste a bailout!
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orcishgamer: I can't take full credit for this, only the wording:

Is Hostess too tasty to fail? I can almost taste a bailout!
If woman is a bit salty, I would lick her all day long and say "why can't you be crisp?" *uses teeth*
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Antimateria: What's a twinkie?
+1 Whats a Twinkie?
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Antimateria: What's a twinkie?
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nijuu: +1 Whats a Twinkie?
well yes, some kind of cookie? =P
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nijuu: +1 Whats a Twinkie?
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Antimateria: well yes, some kind of cookie? =P
Cant say i really know :)...we don't get them here either.....
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Antimateria: well yes, some kind of cookie? =P
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nijuu: Cant say i really know :)...we don't get them here either.....
Freaking americans with those dollars.. ^^

and those tasty treats..
Post edited November 17, 2012 by Antimateria
Really? Oh thank you lord!
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mondo84: I don't think I've ever eaten a Twinkie.
I wonder if they are as repulsive as a deep-fried Snickers bar?
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mondo84: I don't think I've ever eaten a Twinkie.
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Dzsono: I wonder if they are as repulsive as a deep-fried Snickers bar?
That sounds delicious, actually.