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General discussion (archive)GOG.com Joins Opposition to SOPA & PIPA(243 posts)(243 posts)
(243 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted January 13, 2012
You may recall that last year TheEnigmaticT was interviewed by Destructoid about SOPA and PIPA. We played things a bit close to the chest in that interview (TheEnigmaticT comes by his nickname honestly) because we are a Polish company and politics, legislation, and government actions of other countries aren’t generally something we feel we should comment on.

But the more we see that it looks like the US Congress may pass or [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PROTECT_IP_Act]PIPA, the more we feel that we need to speak out. It’s impossible to say what impact that legislation could have on a global company like GOG.com, but we have a platform that can reach out to many gamers who will be effected by this, so we need to let you know about what SOPA and PIPA are and why, if you’re American, you should be worried about them.

What are SOPA and PIPA? These are two different bills that have a stated goal of providing the US government and various IP rightsholders with tools to curb piracy and copyright infringement online. Many web giants, including Amazon, Google, Twitter, Reddit, and eBay have stressed how worried they feel about SOPA and PIPA, because while it is a method to reduce piracy and infringement, it is probably not a good one.

Will SOPA/PIPA work? It might, depending on your definition of “work.” It will put the power over what content is available on the Internet very firmly into the hands of people who are rights-holders--or who claim to be. It will restrict the scope of legitimate content allowed on websites in ways we probably don’t even know yet. A few examples of what might change if SOPA is passed: it could kill streaming of game footage or even game-chat, radically alter how your favorite user-generated content websites--including the GOG.com forums--function, and finally, it may well undermine the basic structure of the Internet.

Will SOPA/PIPA stop piracy? No. SOPA works in a fashion similar to DRM, if you ask us: it only will have an effect on people who are, by and large, honest consumers. Pirates who torrent via P2P methods will not be inconvenienced in the least by SOPA and PIPA; people who post “let’s play” walkthroughs of video games on YouTube, though, may be.

GOG.com is opposed to piracy and copyright infringement, but we know that there are good way to try and reduce piracy and bad ones. GOG.com will always oppose anti-piracy methods that threaten user privacy and freedom. We will always stay DRM-free and apply ‘same game-same price’ policy. We will always put trust in our users as the best method of fighting piracy.

SOPA is not the way to fix the problem of piracy. If you agree with us, don’t just send a tweet or shake your head in anger. Do something. Contact your congressperson or representative and tell them in no uncertain terms that you oppose this bill. There’s a chance that SOPA won’t be as bad as organizations like the EFF and Wikimedia foundations say it is, but you only have one chance to stop this before it happens.
Posted January 14, 2012
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crazy_dave: Of course I give them credit for the first attempt at Democracy, but imperfect doesn't even begin to describe it. I'd recommend reading up about Athens, especially on their actions during the Peloponnesian War - Wikipedia in its article on Criticism of Athenian Democracy doesn't unfortunately have anywhere near a complete accounting (especially what they did to Melos and almost did to another island in a similar situation but recalled the fleet in the nick of time), but it's a start when going through Athenian actions pre- and during war. Athens was the first democracy and they were the first imperial democracy as well. They were a real set of bastards and only rivaled in their brutality and arrogance by the Spartans (and it's unclear who was actually worse - okay the Spartans were worse, but by a hair) - I'm not talking about judging them through a modern lens either which can be unfair, but by the judgements of the other city states and indeed even their own citizens some of whom were executed or banished for speaking out against atrocities leveled by Athens (or just because the Athenian citizens felt like it at the time) - Socrates is the most famous example, but there were others. The list goes on.
You are an optimist I'm sure of it. In times like those when the brutality and killings were common they did what they had to do in order to survive as a state (btw, I'm not talking about Athens only). Was it possible to lift the bar of democracy higher? Maybe or maybe not. They may not be able to exist if not for atrocities they did. We have no rights to judge them unrelated to the times they lived in. Besides they were many heads above the empires and states came next (with all those Dark ages ahead).
Being a realist (if not pessimist) I can see in what direction you're going. You're saying that the modern society actually improved and developed more humane conditions for each and everyone. I would respectfully disagree with that. There are only different masks and life being so much more complicated does not give the same amount of satisfaction for living as it may used to give many centuries ago. We have cell phones now (to get the bad news anywhere), computers, planes to travel, space to boast about. Our relationships become increasingly virtual and soulless. You're not a real person anymore; you're a certain ghost in my computer. Is this the way you would like to relate to anybody?
Post edited January 14, 2012 by ng
Posted January 14, 2012
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ng: You are an optimist I'm sure of it. In times like those when the brutality and killings were common they did what they had to do in order to survive as a state (btw, I'm not talking about Athens only). Was it possible to lift the bar of democracy higher? Maybe or maybe not. They may not be able to exist if not for atrocities they did. We have no rights to judge them unrelated to the times they lived in. Besides they were many heads above the empires and states came next (with all those Dark ages ahead).
Being a realist (if not pessimist) I can see in what direction you're going. You're saying that the modern society actually improved and developed more humane conditions for each and everyone. I would respectfully disagree with that. There are only different masks and life being so much more complicated does not give the same amount of satisfaction for living as it may used to give many centuries ago. We have cell phones now (to get the bad news anywhere), computers, planes to travel, space to boast about. Our relationships become increasingly virtual and soulless. You're not a real person anymore; you're a certain ghost in my computer. Is this the way you would like to relate to anybody?
As I said, even at the time, even by their own people (never mind other Greeks at the time) such actions were considered extreme and unhelpful. In fact far from helping them, the arrogance, brutality, and fickleness of the Athenians led directly to their downfall at the hands of Sparta. Athenians were not a free society - not even the citizens - a hypocrisy that Plato railed against , "the tyranny of the majority" (actually coined by de Tocqueville, but aptly describes Plato's views on the system). So this is not just a case of today's current morality admonishing the barbarous past. But be that as it is, even if it were, yes it would still be our barbarous past. You cannot have it both ways. You say they had to be barbarous and cruel in order to survive the barbarous and cruel world they lived in - therefor it is unfair to judge them by modern standards. But then you say that we do not offer better conditions today. Well then it would be quite fair to judge their actions by today's standards. You cannot have it both ways.

And yes, I would rather live right now that at almost any other time in history. Does that make me an optimist? Not really. I see the failings of the modern era and the various possible trajectories, but can turn that critical eye to the past as well. This "increasingly soulless" society has a lot of advantages. Simplicity of the past is great - unless of course you happen to be one of the unlucky ones and the further back you go, the higher percentage of the population live in crushing poverty. Industrialization has committed many sins and harm to the world and humans, but over the past 200 years, people in industrialized countries live longer, healthier, and materially better lives than their ancestors did. Should we overlook the harm because of that? Of course not, but looking back at the past with rose colored glasses is just as myopic as failing to recognize those areas of our own society that are in need of dire improvement or the actions of today which fall so drastically short of our own ideals. Satisfaction in one's life is a pretty relative term. Yes, I'll take the burden of cell phone communication over being burned at the stake because I'm an atheist or banished for speaking out against authority. Life is complicated. If it isn't, then it's either been cut short and/or exceptionally boring.

We still have slavery - actual slavery - in the world (including illicit slavery in the sex trade in industrialized nations). Just like it was in the past, it's still pretty horrific. If that's what you want to condone in the name of living the simple life, well as long as you'd be just as happy being slave as master in ancient Athens, go for it. For my part, I'll hope, not expect, that the next generations will view our less savory attributes with equal repugnancy as we do for our ancestors. We should glorify the path they gave us, but not the world as it was (or is for that matter).

You sound very much like those in my country who idolize the founding fathers of the US and paint this wonderfully bucolic picture of life in America at the time (the 20's and 50's are good targets for this as well). Again, if those people would be just as willing to live as a black slave on a plantation in those times (or say coal miners in the 20's, etc...), then they're more than welcome to them. Jefferson himself hoped that future generations of Americans would look upon the founders of the US as their barbarous ancestors and not idolize a return to them. The past is the past. Celebrate its triumphs, condemn its atrocities and learn from their foibles, but never seek to return to it. That is folly. Yearning for the simplicity of halcyon days of times gone past is common ... and almost always a fallacy.

As interesting as this discussion is, we are now very much off-topic. :) So we should probably wrap up closing arguments. :P
Post edited January 14, 2012 by crazy_dave
Posted January 14, 2012
I can already hear China laughing.
Posted January 14, 2012
I agree we should try to wrap this conversation up. It’s expanding pretty uncontrollably…

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crazy_dave: As I said, even at the time, even by their own people (never mind other Greeks at the time)
...
Well then it would be quite fair to judge their actions by today's standards. You cannot have it both ways.
Lets then leave it at that. You consider them barbaric and cruel, I cannot agree with you.

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crazy_dave: And yes, I would rather live right now that at almost any other time in history. Does that make me an optimist? Not really. I see the failings of the modern era and the various possible trajectories, but can turn that critical eye to the past as well. This "increasingly soulless" society has a lot of advantages. Simplicity of the past is great - unless of course you happen to be one of the unlucky ones and the further back you go, the higher percentage of the population live in crushing poverty. Industrialization has committed many sins and harm to the world and humans, but over the past 200 years, people in industrialized countries live longer, healthier, and materially better lives than their ancestors did. Should we overlook the harm because of that? Of course not, but looking back at the past with rose colored glasses is just as myopic as failing to recognize those areas of our own society that are in need of dire improvement or the actions of today which fall so drastically short of our own ideals. Satisfaction in one's life is a pretty relative term. Yes, I'll take the burden of cell phone communication over being burned at the stake because I'm an atheist or banished for speaking out against authority. Life is complicated. If it isn't, then it's either been cut short and/or exceptionally boring.
We’ve still a mostly atheistic country here so I have a relief speaking with anybody akin. We’re different in the ways we perceive life. If you like its complexity and complications it’s only your choice. Let’s leave behind all the slavery and the poverty of the past because now we’re equally tired, sleepy, don’t have enough time for anything besides work and we’re always late… We’re trying to hurry to be able to get our share of enjoyment in life and we can’t see that instead of living we’ve got a pretty complicated and technologically advanced routine. It’s still a routine for me and I can barely get any joy out of it. That’s only a part of my point of view but that sums up the subject of having love relationships with the past. And of course it may be drastically different from yours; if we can also leave this topic, that’d be great.

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crazy_dave: You sound very much like those in my country who idolize the founding fathers of the US and paint this wonderfully bucolic picture of life in America at the time (the 20's and 50's are good targets for this as well). Again, if those people would be just as willing to live as a black slave on a plantation in those times (or say coal miners in the 20's, etc...), then they're more than welcome to them. Jefferson himself hoped that future generations of Americans would look upon the founders of the US as their barbarous ancestors and not idolize a return to them. The past is the past. Celebrate its triumphs, condemn its atrocities and learn from their foibles, but never seek to return to it. That is folly. Yearning for the simplicity of halcyon days of times gone past is common ... and almost always a fallacy.
They may have a point in my opinion. Who knows what would think of the current state of US and the world any of these gentlemen if they happen to be alive right now. Getting rid of the slavery is a step in the right direction, but turning 98% of the people into disguised slaves with little to no hope for a better tomorrow is a nonstop express back to nowhere.

Now I know your opinion and you know mine. As one computer ghost to another -- let’s leave those opinions as they are.
Posted January 14, 2012
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ng: Now I know your opinion and you know mine. As one computer ghost to another -- let’s leave those opinions as they are.
Indeed. Good discussing history/society with you. :)
Posted January 14, 2012
I do not know much about SOPA/PIPA, but from what little I read and heard it similar to ACTA currently discussed by European parliament. It is really sad that such bills are even considered to take effect. It is against everything a sane liberal person stands for. The authorities are treating a symptom with this and very badly at that - companies should try to motivate their customers to buy their product for it is good and better then pirated version instead of trying to fight piracy in a way that actually hurts only their customers - I feel that same way as DRM these bill are only going to hurt legal customers and players while allowing people who know something about hacking and networking(and chose not to abide by EULAs and/or laws) to be completely unaffected by these changes.

By this paragraph I was somewhat unclearly trying to say, that I support gog.com decision to oppose these bills and that I very much agree with them. Thank you for your participation once again(even though I do not really think that such an opposition is going to have much of an impact).
Posted January 14, 2012
Took your sweet time,GOG.
But better late than never. :D
Posted January 14, 2012
Good, good to know GOG opposes both. :)
Posted January 14, 2012
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ne_zavarj: *annoyed*
How about a real announcement of the new publisher and its gog catalogue instead of this bulls..t ?
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kodeen: Integrity of the internet's infrastructure is more important than video games, I'm afraid.
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ne_zavarj: Please don't make me laugh .
You are never happy about anything GOG does are you? Not to be rude but many times I see you here complaining "Not enough discount on sales, games released are a disappointment, SOPA/PIPA talk isn't worthwhile news, etc." Are you ever happy about anything at all?
Posted January 14, 2012
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Nettle: I do not know much about SOPA/PIPA, but from what little I read and heard it similar to ACTA currently discussed by European parliament. It is really sad that such bills are even considered to take effect. It is against everything a sane liberal person stands for. The authorities are treating a symptom with this and very badly at that - companies should try to motivate their customers to buy their product for it is good and better then pirated version instead of trying to fight piracy in a way that actually hurts only their customers - I feel that same way as DRM these bill are only going to hurt legal customers and players while allowing people who know something about hacking and networking(and chose not to abide by EULAs and/or laws) to be completely unaffected by these changes.

By this paragraph I was somewhat unclearly trying to say, that I support gog.com decision to oppose these bills and that I very much agree with them. Thank you for your participation once again(even though I do not really think that such an opposition is going to have much of an impact).
Treating people nice costs money. Being a dick usually costs far less.
Posted January 14, 2012
My (imaginary) hat's off to GOG for going public about opposing SOPA.
Posted January 14, 2012
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Nettle: I do not know much about SOPA/PIPA, but from what little I read and heard it similar to ACTA currently discussed by European parliament. It is really sad that such bills are even considered to take effect. It is against everything a sane liberal person stands for. The authorities are treating a symptom with this and very badly at that - companies should try to motivate their customers to buy their product for it is good and better then pirated version instead of trying to fight piracy in a way that actually hurts only their customers - I feel that same way as DRM these bill are only going to hurt legal customers and players while allowing people who know something about hacking and networking(and chose not to abide by EULAs and/or laws) to be completely unaffected by these changes.

By this paragraph I was somewhat unclearly trying to say, that I support gog.com decision to oppose these bills and that I very much agree with them. Thank you for your participation once again(even though I do not really think that such an opposition is going to have much of an impact).
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Fenixp: Treating people nice costs money. Being a dick usually costs far less.
In this case I am not sure if that is true - For example EA with their Origin game launcher - they lost lot of dedicated customers, paid third person group for DRM and launcher programming and were sued - all because of lamely made DRM. They werent nice on customers and it didnt really paid of - and it is similar with large number of DRMs and with bills as these - they do not really let those companies to earn more money, they do not let them control piracy, but they do annoy legal customers.
Posted January 14, 2012
I've been posting about these monstrosities for months, even a few times here!

Also : small update : http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120113/15120617405/pipas-own-sponsors-backing-off-bill-ask-senate-to-hold-off-voting.shtml

They're getting delayed to make some changes - one to write out the internet portion, apparently.

Not holding my breath just yet, but a step in the right direction!

Edit : All right, some of the co-authors are backing away with it, for reasons as above, but the main instigator says the vote is still on for the 24th :\

ARSE!
Post edited January 14, 2012 by Lone3wolf
Posted January 14, 2012
Well said GoG !
Posted January 14, 2012
Thanks for taking a stand on this, GOG. Noticed and appreciated.
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Community
General discussion (archive)GOG.com Joins Opposition to SOPA & PIPA(243 posts)(243 posts)
(243 posts)