Modern artists are often trying to challenge what people preconceived ideas of what art is. Can you think of any games that try to challenge the gamers perspective of what is a "game" (and still remain an enjoyable and quality product?)

I think heavy rain for example is one of those games that actually arent much of a game in the strict word is more like an "interactive movie", kind of hard question to answer really

These games are more like toys or ant farm-like simulations:


The original 'Sim City'

Little Computer People
http://www.mobygames.com/game/little-computer-people

That was like so awesome back in the day....C64!! :P

Umm, Spec Ops: The Line.

Nothing in this thread is going to beat that. You shouldn't just be asking "why games" you should be asking, "why am I actually playing games."

Nothing else has had the audacity to hold up a mirror to the gamer themselves and show us the ugliest parts about ourselves.

Whether it "remained enjoyable" is a matter of personal preference, but No More Heroes was an extended satire of the gamer playing it. And not a "ha ha let's laugh together at our foibles" satire, either - this game was vicious. (Example: The player has to grind through intentionally mind-numbing "side jobs" such as pumping gas and mowing lawns, in order to scrape together enough cash to actually be allowed to access the next level and spend a short time playing at being a sword-wielding assassin. Ouch. There's also an absurdly boring and aggravating collect-them-all sidequest that literally serves no purpose in the game other than to see if you will do it just because it's there.)

I believe Antichamber was made solely as a big "fuck you" to established gaming conventions.

I actually liked "Dear Esther". Maybe wouldnt call it a game...But I think ill eventually play it through again, its the kind of game(or book?) that you can go through several times and still find something new. I like methaphoras, symbols all that crap that force you to use your own brains and make your own conclusions.

"Home" is also quite the experience, pretty cheap on steam - dunno if its somewhere else as well.

Yeah, the entirety of No More Heroes really is an insult to the gamer. The game is basically saying that gamers have boring jobs and live in boring urban environments and essentially live boring lives outside of video games, which is their means of escapism and satisfying their thirst for extreme violence. The enitre game is designed around this idea. I've never played a game so devoted to satire or social commentary that the designers intentionally made large parts of it as boring as possible (though it's still an immensely enjoyable game, perhaps still fun, albeit in an unconventional way).

The contrast between the gamer's reality and the gamer's fantasy in No More Heroes does kind of reveal a flaw in video gaming: the idea that "fun" means non-stop violence and excitement. You can see it in the way gamers complain about the sailing in The Wind Waker, because there is not enough fighting and killing involved. Or when people complain about backtracking in open-world games like Metroid (apparently, games should be linear). It's the same thing when people complain about "boring" side quests in RPGs. But shouldn't a truly immersive RPG have a mix of both mundane and exciting quests and activities? Side-quests and activities are optional for a reason, and maybe there is more motivation for doing them besides "fun".

Compare video games to other mediums of art/entertainment. Is Schindler's List a bad movie because it's not "fun"? Is Songs of Love and Hate a bad album because it's not "fun"? No More Heroes really challenges the basic conventions of gaming. Perhaps one day, we'll get the video game equivalent of Grave of the Fireflies. Actually, there's this game called Fragile Dreams: Farewell Ruins of the Moon that's apparently extremely depressing. I actually own the game, but I haven't played it yet, so we'll see.

It should. And the only ones actually complaining about it are those I am going to call 'Vocals', because, for instance, Skyrim is full of mundane quests and its apparently better for it.

And then there are games that don't focus on violence at all, yet are popular, like Minecraft (violence is still present in a way, but it can be turned off and it's not the main point of the game.) Actually, most popular games aren't violent - I'm talking games like farmville or most of the casual gaming in general. It's just us, 'hardcore' gamers who require it - and we do so because violence is the easiest way to present challenge in gameplay. Well some of us do, I don't really give a shit about challenge.