Okay Weclock what *do* you think is art?
Personally do I think games can be art? Well yeh i spose. For the most part I don't care. Whether or not I like/am moved by etc anything has nothing to do with whether or not it has art stamped clearly on it. All I care about is if it does move me or otherwise stir emotions or make me think. I remember one art exhibition and the guy had stuck a three inch tall block of wood across the bottom of one of the doorways. This was apparently one of his sculptures. The idea behind it was to create a palpable physical representation of the way we split up space. In having to step over it (or in some cases almost trip) it forced you to consider it, think about how it seperates one room from another. Is that art? its just ablock of wood some people would say yes some no. I don't give a shit, it still made me think.

No, this is wrong. In so many ways. First of all, and most obviously, because there are tons of games that are created and released for free. Ever heard of freeware? Or "indie" games?
Secondly, the idea that you know exactly why all games are made, and that there is only one reason (profit), is just plain crazy. Maybe if you said "games are published for the sole purpose of profit", then you would have had a point that was more difficult to argue against (though one certainly could), but "developed"? You can not know this. You can not know what reasons game creators have for doing what they do. Profit is obviously a common reason, but there are no doubt many more. Just like with movies, books and songs.
Anyway, people who claim that games aren't art either don't know what games are, or don't know what art is. It's that simple.

I apologize for assuming we're talking about the mainstream market, and not games that nobody plays and that have no effect on the market whatsoever.

Sorry, but wow, that's a stupid answer. So if something isn't mainstream, it's not counted? Is any art, except the classical stuff, "mainstream"? And why on earth does that even matter? When did art become something that had to have an effect on "the market"?
By your reasoning, art films should not be considered in such a discussion either, because they aren't popular and they don't bring in decent amounts of money. So if the question was "are movies art", instead of "are games art", one should only consider the Hollywood blockbusters and come to the conclusion that, no, movies aren't art (except that it would still be wrong, but there you go).

Weclock doesn't think games are art!
Let's argue with him over this completely subjective matter or universe will implode!

Except it isn't as subjective as everyone seems to think. One can't say "I don't see the artistic value of something, therefore it isn't art". It's not up to each and every one of us to define what art is, according to our tastes.
Art is, according to Britannica, "the use of skill and imagination in the creation of aesthetic objects, environments, or experiences that can be shared with others." ([url=]http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/630806/art[/url])
This may not be the only definition of art, but it's the most common and most others are similar. So let's just remove some bits from it, and we get: the use of skill and imagination in the creation of experiences that can be shared with others. In other words, a perfect description of game development.

I think the problem is that he doesn't treat it as if it was subjective. He makes his statements as if he's reciting well-known scientific facts, rather than stating his personal opinion. Saying "in my opinion, games do not count as art", most likely won't provoke as hefty a discussion as saying "games cannot possibly be counted as art" will.

No, the problem is, is that there was no one going to argue the side of the argument I was arguing. I don't give a rats ass one way or another about art, but I saw this thread and thought to myself "There's no one here who is going to contradict this, this thread is going to be two or three posts of 'yup' and then be over. What better way to get people to identify their feelings and really post vehemently about it, if I put up a really poor strawman argument on the subject."
So for those of you counting at home, they all got trolled.

Boy, you really miss funGoo, don't you?

This thread has become rubbish, let it pass into the depths of forum history and be forgot...

That and the internet was boring as hell today. seriously pissed off the mother of my children left my car at work with me, and didn't tell me where the fuck she parked it.

Well, I guess its better that you take your bad day out on us and not the kids. :)

I didn't say it would be good art. Experience is an artform, as much as any other. :)

Maggie, I'm only replying to let you know, that I really truly have no interest in this topic other than to drive posts.

thread lock request.