DRM: Do you have to interact with the seller in any way after the purchase, if you don't want to? If you do, there's DRM.

Can you install it on an no-Internet machine in the future if the company has vanished and you've been good about keeping backups? That's DRM-free.

Are serial numbers classed as DRMs? I personally don't consider it DRM but I've heard several people class it as a form of DRM.

I've heard people say needing the disc in the drive classifies as DRM. XD Imagine how they felt when Diablo 3 came out; you sure don't need the disc in the drive do you? :P

Not if you don't lose them ;)

I personally don't mind serial number activation though, so long as it's not a challenge-response type activation.

Strictly speaking, you're describing a type of DRM. There's also copy protection, HDCP, all sorts of other crap. A lot of them don't really apply to PC games though.

I find some of them more tolerable than others.

With regards to PC games, the one that annoys me the most is any system which the prevents the resell of used games. That pretty much includes any form of digital distribution (including GOG). A lot of people disagree with me about GOG-that's fine. I'm not interested in debating it again-all it did last time was cost me at least 4 points of reputation. I not going to convince anyone. I will say that while it's true GOG provides DRM free installers, GOG is not selling installers, but single-use access keys. To me, that distinction is important.

So, to the OP, my revised version of your original statement:
For PC games, DRM includes any system that requires contact with an outside party after the sale of a game in order to be able to use the game or content. All forms of activation be they once, once a week, once a month, or constantly-on (including activations required for the initial download or redownload of the product itself) which permanently tie the product to a single user and/or attempt to restrict the number of activations, restrict the legal duplication (under fair use), or restrict access (read: account banning) is DRM.

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Slightly off topic: The Wikipedia article on DRM has a quote from Gabe Newell where he states, "most DRM strategies are just dumb. The goal should be to create greater value for customers [...] not by decreasing the value of a product."

Between the persistent DRM, complete lack of ownership of any "purchases", frequent sales (which frankly only bring the prices in line with what a rental price should be in the first place), and it's ubiquity, Valve and Steam have probably done more to decrease the value of games than any other entity.

I appreciate the replies and the good humor, everybody. (Apart from the unhelpful one by pimpmonkey). Sounds like a generally good bunch of people here.

@rtcvb32

While I largely agree, the thing about the Wikipedia definition is that it isn't what that read a few months ago. This issue came up on a sim forum about a year ago, and a couple of people pointed to the Wikipedia entry as 'proof that everybody uses DRM' since the definition, at the time, included simple serials. It looks like somebody's changed that article since then. The moral of the story is, I think it would be better to have a more ironclad definition than Wikipedia's.

In any case, hopefully this thread will help others. Thanks again, and I will be picking up WCIV (and probably tons of other stuff eventually!)

You'll probably find this video interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjEbpMgiL7U

Also, the whole channel is quite good.

Part of the problem is, there really is no ironclad definition of DRM. There's not even an ironclad definition of consumer's rights these days.

As for serials... it really depends on the implementation.

If you're required to connect to an online server to authenticate the serial number, it's a DRM. And a fairly bad one at that-if the server were to go offline you're stuck with a useless serial.

If the serial is used to limit the number of activations, it's a DRM.

If the serial is used to limit the number or type of devices the which the product can be activated on, it's a DRM.

Basically, serial numbers are not DRM, but they're often used for DRMs.

Or if the company says 'this serial was posted online' and in the next patch they ban certain serial numbers, after you update your game suddenly the game may not work anymore... I think M$ does this for their OSes sometimes.

In some cases like NeverWinter Nights, each user in multi-player needed their own serial number making it an annoying feature, especially when you wanted to play with a friend in the same house or room...

And for a reason. Namely, GOG doesn't include any technical measures (=DRM) to prevent you from selling your downloaded GOG game installers, for which you've bought a license (license from the game publisher, not GOG which is the store and a service provider). Whether that is legal in your country is a different question, and it is tricky anyway because it may be unclear what constitutes as the proof of your license that you'd transfer to the new owner. With physical games, it used to be the media itself (e.g. the CD, or diskettes) and all the material that was needed for the game.

You may be mixing up the game license (from the game publisher), and the service (provided by GOG). You don't need the GOG service to install and play the game after you have bought and obtained your game (installer) for the first time.

You are already debating it, but just stating that you don't want to hear any counter-arguments this time. :)

I bolded the part with which I disagree.

Downloading your GOG game installer from the GOG service shouldn't be seen different from carrying a physical CD game from a store to your home (after you have purchased it). That is the "obtaining your game" part in each case. If you feel that having to log into your GOG account in order to download your purchased game the first time is DRM, then carrying the game from a brick and mortar store to home is DRM as well, or if you ordered the physical CD game by mail and it is waiting for you in the post office, having to show your ID card at the post office in order to get your game is also DRM.

You seem to be again mixing up the game itself (the game installer you have obtained from GOG), and the extra service provided by GOG on top of the game. They are not the same. It is true you can't sell (transfer) that extra GOG service (your GOG account), along with the game installer. But the point is, you don't need that extra service in order to install and play the game.

Well, at least for single-player games. It will become debatable if the online multiplayer part will require an account (e.g. in GOG Galaxy service), ie. you can't in practice transfer the ability to play the multiplayer part of games to someone else. That is its own can of worms then.

No, I'm not debating it. Provide all the counter-arguments you wish. I'm not interested in replying to them.

Eh, he got it all wrong when he called SafeDisk/SecuRom/Starforce DRM. Later versions of SecuROM (that use the Internet to revoke licenses) are DRM, but the earlier ones he mentioned at that time are not.

I think his concept of DRM was "a thing that makes it hard to copy a certain piece of software". Probably that's why the more recent versions of DRM seem a little bit "alien" when compared to earlier stuff, but no system was impossible to crack, just like when you applied that little trick that allowed you to record over previously "safe" cassete tapes.

That's my definition too.

Many people disagree.

I remember playing games with the wheel/off disk DRM as is described. Quite annoying. Imagine starting a game on a limited budget with old-school D&D games , and you get the wheel asking you a question and giving you 3 weird symbols. Answering the question is at one point is kinda fun, but after the first three times it becomes a pain.

But if you don't answer the question right, it just boots you back to DOS...

I believe there were several games I played that did this. Alone in the dark, 4D Boxing, 6-in-1 D&D games... Pool of Radiance is one of them

Supposedly some of the ultima games if you were suspected of having a pirated copy would make all your attacks do almost nothing and you were faced against monsters that you couldn't beat... I think Noah Antwiler showed that in his when going over the Ultima game. Let's see click here

Reminds me that some popular 3D modeling software before Blender was an option would intentionally degrade all your work every so often making things look horrible. Maybe it was just the demo version, but the 'bug' was simply their version of DRM or 'being so annoying you'll just buy the actual product'...


edit: To note i forgot to add that quite often you were referred to the manual during the game. Examples include: "In the bar you overhear rumors #9, #10 & #19 in the manual". This tied the game to two separate references which makes the game otherwise unplayable.