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Elmofongo: Is it possible to make an RPG without the number crunching?
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Smannesman: Technically yes, but you kind of need the number crunching and randomness (IMO) to make it interesting.
Number Crunching as in no more Sword that does 10-20 damage and than a Sword that does 100-200 damage.

All the weapons has a use and are different similar to how guns work, for example there is a sword with a pointed tip that used to penetrate armored foes while there is a another kind of sword that slash through unarmored foes with ease.
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Elmofongo: Number Crunching as in no more Sword that does 10-20 damage and than a Sword that does 100-200 damage.

All the weapons has a use and are different similar to how guns work, for example there is a sword with a pointed tip that used to penetrate armored foes while there is a another kind of sword that slash through unarmored foes with ease.
Right, but you'll still be detracting hit points or damage from enemies and thus, number crunching.
I always thought THAC0 was more elegant than 3E's "put numbers on-top of numbers to make bigger numbers"
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Elmofongo: Number Crunching as in no more Sword that does 10-20 damage and than a Sword that does 100-200 damage.

All the weapons has a use and are different similar to how guns work, for example there is a sword with a pointed tip that used to penetrate armored foes while there is a another kind of sword that slash through unarmored foes with ease.
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Smannesman: Right, but you'll still be detracting hit points or damage from enemies and thus, number crunching.
Of course I recognize that some number crunching has to stay such as Mages with mana, I am not going as far as removing mana entirely so they can cast magic like infinately like in Fable 2-3.. the limited mana and mana potion can stay.
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Crosmando: I always thought THAC0 was more elegant than 3E's "put numbers on-top of numbers to make bigger numbers"
AD&D 2nd Edition is still my favorite edition of D&D, although the subsequent versions weren't all terrible I quite enjoyed the 'number crunching' in AD&D2.
Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with bigger numbers beating smaller numbers, I enjoy most different systems (except for FATAL).
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Crosmando: I always thought THAC0 was more elegant than 3E's "put numbers on-top of numbers to make bigger numbers"
I still don't grasp somethings about THAC0, I do know that armor class gets better when its negative and I am still getting along just fine in Baldur's Gate 1 (already at chapter 4) still a little pissed that there is no pure mage companion, there are all only subclass mages like Illusionist etc.
You can dual-class Imoen as Mage. Do you have Xan in your party? His buff spells are the best in the game.
I don't understand the logic. If the games aren't selling to the point they can justify an anthology... why not make it more appealing by removing DRM. They are clearly past the hype of every game in the series. Anyone willing to pirate the game, already has. I would have paid the price they want just to get skyrim DRM-free if they had bothered to make a consumer friendly package.
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Crosmando: You can dual-class Imoen as Mage. Do you have Xan in your party? His buff spells are the best in the game.
Oh yeah that who is the only one who can you use the strongest Long Sword in the entire game (rip-off) yeah I got him but despite his aforemention sword and buff spells he is to weak, he will get slaughtered by arrows for sure.

And the fact I have Khalid and Jaheira with me so if I leave one they both leave and I need thast full party of 6.
Post edited August 02, 2013 by Elmofongo
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Elmofongo: Oh yeah that who is the only one who can you use the strongest Long Sword in the entire game (rip-off) yeah I got him but despite his aforemention sword and buff spells he is to weak, he will get slaughtered by arrows for sure.

And the fact I have Khalid and Jaheira with me so if I leave one they both leave and I need thast full party of 6.
Yes Xan is very weak, here's how I use him:
- Load him up with fortitude potions and wands (lightning bolt/fireball) whenever you can.
- Load up on charms/buffs.
- Buff before battle, use wands at range and then use his sword in close (keeping potions at the ready).
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Crosmando: Not sure how I even get into these arguments
Haha, don't worry about it, Jmich is for some reason trying to convince people here that player level scaling can be a good thing and we should give it a chance. Yet the only good examples of level scaling we found were the games where it is so miniscule that it is basically unnecessary and hardly noticable, like Wiz8 or JA2.
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Dzsono: For Skyrim, yes. Confirmed on Bethesda Blog :\
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pds41: Shame. I was considering buying it until they said that.
This.. So sad. :(

I may pick up a a sale copy for the maps. But not going to play Steam games.
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Elmofongo: Is it possible to make an RPG without the number crunching?
Well, every game needs to crunch some 0 and 1 numbers. a lot.

If there were e.g. no hit points, how could the game decide when you can stop beating the dead horse?
Anyone interested, Daggerfall and Arena are freeware, you can download them here:
[url=http://theelderscrolls.wiwiland.net/?title=Daggerfall_:_DaggerfallSetup_EN]http://theelderscrolls.wiwiland.net/?title=Daggerfall_:_DaggerfallSetup_EN[/url]
[url=http://theelderscrolls.wiwiland.net/?title=Arena_:_ArenaSetup_EN]http://theelderscrolls.wiwiland.net/?title=Arena_:_ArenaSetup_EN[/url]
Post edited August 02, 2013 by Crosmando
Note: Spoilers for TES 3-5 ahead

Oddly enough, I found it much easier to roleplay in Morrowind, which I would venture to argue is by definition the prime prerequisite for a roleplaying game. When I played Morrowind, I played a Kajiit thief (who was the father of my Oblivion character, who will be the ancestor of my remade Skyrim character if I ever manage to force my way through Oblivion: the 'Nerevarine being dragonborn' thing that the Lost Prophecy hinted at was a happy coincidence). As time progressed and I became better known, people began to respect me more for what I'd done. It became easier to convince people to listen to me (which was shown in their disposition starting higher, but could also have been kept behind the scenes, or in giving me more options to persuade people using my influence regularly, or whatever). On one quest for House Hlaalu where I needed to catch a thief, it emerged that that thief was in the Thieves' Guild (which I was in), and I was able to persuade her to give the item to me to hand back and not steal it again. That sort of synergy is something I really haven't seen in the later TES games. Despite being a thief, I was playing more of a Chaotic Good style character, so jumped at the chance to restart the Bal Molagmer later on in the game. If I'd been playing a thief who was merely out for the money, I'd have refused that and continued to progress with the game.

In Skyrim, on the other hand, nothing I did seemed to have a consequence beyond the people involved going 'well done, have some loot'. While I haven't played the Dark Brotherhood/Theives' Guild questlines in the game, I've seen them played, and have to wonder why the member of the TG who sells information to you for the DB questline suddenly forgets that you're his guildmaster when you talk to him on the subject! When in conversation, I find that more often than not the game only gives me one option for what to say, which I have to select. In Morrowind, I think I only had one option for what to say about...five times over the game, and then it was obvious and noncommittal responses like 'ok', or 'wait a minute'. I was able to roleplay and decide what my character would reply, whereas in Skyrim I've been regularly force to say something that my character wouldn't, because the game won't give me any other options but decides what the player 'should' say.

Similarly, in Oblivion, Bethesda clearly decided to put a 'dramatic roleplaying' part into the DB questline, where you're told to kill all the members of your 'family' to be sure of killing the traitor (supposedly) amongst their ranks. Unfortunately, they omitted to include another option, so if you want to continue with the quest you have to do it. If your character, while an assassin, has a strong sense of honour (which, I gather from the in game lore, the Morag Tong are all about, incidentally), you...would be forced to act out of character in a massive way, Even worse, if you suspect who the real traitor is (the one who gives you the message)...Even my character, who ultimately would probably have decided to obey orders and kill them anyway, was affected by the decision not being my choice, and became that much less deep a character.

Cheer up, though, Skyrim and Oblivion ARE roleplaying games. By one definition, they're far more so than Morrowind. After all, in 'Skyblivion' the game is roleplaying for you most of the time, while you're left to click a few buttons and attack stuff! In Morrowind, you roleplay for yourself. Maybe we need a new term for that? Games Allowing RolePlaying, or GARPs?