Why am I a plumber? Why are these turtles brown mushrooms attacking me? Why do these flowers make me breath fire? Why do the clouds have eyes?

Old NES games like Mario and Contra could hardly be considered indie games unless we're willing to say that Nintendo was an indie company back in the 80s.

Surely you noticed the whole time manipulation mechanic that was pretty much the core of the game, right?

So it was that easy for your mod teams to find artists that can create unique graphics? Graphics that were not reskins and recolours of the graphics that were already in the game you were modding?

I suspect a lot of people on this forum are butthurt over the glut of platformers and the scarcity of RPGs in the indie scene. Also iDevices. </troll>

No, they bit holes in my wallet instead. Unique experience my ass, I'm having way more fun with these old 80s and 90s games here on GoG.

Are you seriously comparing the game that poineered large open levels in console games and used inspiration from classic literature to a mess of pointless 8bit tropes?

The core of a game is not its mechanic but its content. The time manipulation was just used to solve braindead puzzles.

I found the seal ironic since many of the Tengen games were unlicensed, but were still good imo. When you started going further down the chain and reaching things like the religious games, that's where quality took a ride off a cliff.

I noticed since at least the days of the Wii, it changed to the "Official Nintendo Seal" with quality removed. Considering how quality isn't a word that can be used for most Wii stuff, it was a fitting change.

Edit: I just checked my Gamecube games and saw the wording was changed on them too. So it was done sometime between the SNES and N64 days.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy them. I did enjoy Faerie Solitaire, Fortix 2, Jolly Rover and other indie titles. I felt they were good value for money. On the other hand I find that many of the games here on GOG have bad graphics and difficult to use controls. Matter of personal taste I guess.

Therefore it is not graphics you care but gameplay. not the topic of this discussion.


I really really don't care about graphics. Gemini Rue was weird. At first. Got used to it after one hour.
The same way I got used to amazing graphics of HL2 back in 2004.

irrelevant. game might look like crap but if it is interesting i will play it.

I use Ultima 4 as an example of beautiful ugly game.

http://rampantgames.com/blog/uploaded_images/ultima4-794600.jpg

Isn't it beautiful? And there are few mods that make it even more beautiful!

http://www.tleaves.com/weblog/images/articles/ultima4-updated.png

or Dwarf Fortress without graphics mods:
http://kosciak.blox.pl/resource/dwarffortressbig.png

Is it possible that Mario, Zelda, Castlevania, Contra, and Ninja Gaiden don't seem wierd to you because they're AAA franchises that still get new releases to this very day? They have a huge cultural footprint and shaped gaming norms.

I don't know anything about VVVVVVV, but when I see pictures of it, it reminds me of a Spectrum game. If you don't have that connection perhaps much of the appeal is lost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRTsl1jCqq8&feature=plcp

Was this linked yet?

I like a question which was a respond to the graphical style on WoW, i.e. cartoony and not so realistic - "What does a photorealistic orc look like anyway?"

The only criteria for graphics should be - functional and fit for purpose.

Dude, Braid's gameplay was time manipulation puzzles. That's like saying the portal gun in Portal was just a gimmick used to solve braindead puzzles.

I thought Braid's story was too pretentious for its own good myself, but I can hardly call the gameplay crap.

That 8/16 bit stuff is actually stylized graphics at this point, yes some folks do it lazily and crappily, rest assured their non-stylized work would be just as bad.

No, they're not really fooling anyone, we know that.

If you see shitty stylized graphics their gameplay is likely just as haphazardly thrown together and it would be pure serendipity if it was any fucking good at all.

Graphics and animation are a part of gameplay, and can be inseparable. Photorealism can destroy good gameplay. Take a series like Street Fighter for example. The gameplay requires split-second reflexes. This means it also requires split-second animations. If you make a serious attempt for realistic animation, you kill the gameplay, and if you go for photorealism in graphics, the animation seems hackneyed. This is why Street Figther IV was smart to go with a stylized 3D animation approach that looks very cool, but doesn't bother wtih looking realistic.

Another example, if we look at platforming games. This gameplay requires that you quickly run and time jumps in the gameplay world. If they were to make that look realistic, you would never be able to jump so high, recover so quickly, or even have a floating platform. In fact, even an overly stylized platformer with lots of 3D effects loses a lot of the gameplay benefits of a visually simple and easy to understand gameplay environment. Platformers look best in 8-bit or 16-bit art styles. With a few exceptions, it's much harder to make a platformer enjoyable with complex 3D graphics. Pandemonium here on GOG is an ok platformer, but the 3D gets in the way of a smooth experience and though it was a selling gimmick for that game, it will never hold the same appeal as Super Mario Bros.

In the video linked above, he mentions that Minecraft wouldn't be possible in a non-block universe because the game mechanics focus on blocks.

Hotline Miami has been taking crap for its ugly graphics, largely from people that haven't played the game. Once you play it, you see how the nauseating colors glow, flash, and bend with the psychological experience of the murderous gameplay and the ugliness of the thing matches the ugliness of your characters actions and suddenly the graphics seem perfect. Not to mention, you wouldn't get that thrill of rushing into a room and shooting everyone out if you had realistic animations.

While it is true that there are a lot of indie games that have no visual style and are just ugly for no good reason, there are also lots of examples where gameplay is better served by less realistic graphics and animation. What indie games can really offer the world of gaming is the ability to toy around with innovative gameplay ideas. I think if we expect them all to have fancy graphics, we're going to miss out on that. I'm not saying graphics aren't important, but gameplay comes first in my book. I want graphics that work in tandem with gameplay to provide an optimal interactive experience.

Actually, mods are not that easy as an artist because you have to adapt your own style to that of the game. One of these mods was for Deus Ex which has a very recognisable art style. I had to design skins and clothing that matched the original which was not easy at all. I also skinned quite a few new models for the mod.

Another mod was for Quake II which was also new models - again, not easy since you have to make it fit.

For a brand new project that stands on its own, any project leader worth his or her salt, should sketch what the game should look like in structure and then let the artist make a mock up to demonstrate the art direction he'd take it in. Then the project leader can pick the artist whose mock up is the best. It's not rocket science - just smart planning.

Oh, and the mods I worked with, had several other artists helping out at the same time - all working for free and doing quality work. Like I said before, releasing a butt ugly game really has no proper excuses.

When you make something your attitude bleeds into the product. Why else do all of those "unique" games have both unique art styles and unique game mechanics?

Punch Out doesn't fit the bill, yet it is one of the coolest games, going for that whole Rocky thing. Guerrila War, which I'm sure no one knows about, looks prettz cool. It's like a top-down Metal Slug.

At least Portal made me think more than Braid; with Braid I just rushed through. There were maybe two or three puzzles where I had to think, but the rest was just braindead.

yeah. but you don't like gameplay not the graphics as you can play and like bad graphics games.
therefore not a topic of conversation.