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kohlrak: [...]
That's a fairly deep question OP. Well, I suppose I'd have everyone spend a day or more as other people around the world. My main belief is that most hatred and conflict stems out of ignorance and lack of empathy, which can never be addressed since each man is an island, stuck with his own thoughts, views, problems. Even if this experience has the potential to widen the gap (with counter-examples), it can still do good. Imagine spending a day in the life of a serial killer or of someone who is clinically insane. It may sound like a nightmare, but maybe it will also make one better appreciate his own life, no matter how challenging it is.

P.S. I'm going to take this chance to recommend this novel: https://www.sfsite.com/02a/bm121.htm to anyone who is into biology/physiology and/or SF.
Post edited February 25, 2021 by WinterSnowfall
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kohlrak: "my rights end where yours begin."
Couldn't have presented it any better myself! This should be in bold, really!
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dtgreene: In this scenario, I may not be able to change anyone's opinion, but I could still control them. So, what I would do is control some people, and have them try to convince others that my point of view is correct.

For example, if it's something that could be demonstrated scientifically, I would control a group of reputable scientists, have them do an experiment that would demonstrate my point of view to be correct (perhaps letting them do some of the work without my control), then make sure it gets published in a widely-read scientific journal.

Or I could control some people, have them leave the church, have them convince their friends to leave the church, and then relinquish control (at which point the people I controlled would likely rejoin the church).

This is, of course, ignoring any ethical considerations as to the ethics of controlling other people this way.
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kohlrak: You're ignoring the whole point of the question by ignoring the ethical considerations: do you as a person feel that you would be properly justified in violating peoples' will by being such a tyrant? If you had the power to force change against the will of others, would you choose to use it, or would you choose that it is better that people have the freedom to destroy themselves and suffer the consequences? Would you prevent a drug user from using drugs, even when they firmly believe in said drugs? Would you influence an election knowing full well that the election, when fair, would yield a different result?

The big picture of the question is for people to analyze themselves. Hitler certainly believed that what he was doing was what was best for the world. If you had believed the same things as Hitler, would you become Hitler? Same with Mao or any other totalitarian. The question, put into the most simple of terms is, "If you had the power to be a tyrant, would you be one, or would you hold to your values of freedom and let the world earn your predicted destruction that it so ardently desires?"
In this case, it would be better if I were to have the desire to control others, because then everybody else would not.
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kohlrak: And you seem to understand even better. Your take is much, much more nuanced: realizing that there may be times where it is acceptable, with the understanding that there's more than just good deeds, but sometimes the good deeds are what is necessary. However, where does one draw the line? What would you have to hold yourself in place to prevent becoming a tyrant?
All you can do is go with your moral compass and maybe let history be the judge.
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kohlrak: Are you expecting equality of outcome, rather than equality of opportunity?
You didn't ask me, but I rather would, ideally.
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Anothername: If I'm changed to such an extreme that I'm at odds with the world why would there be a moral dilemma? If I still have my morals and ethics how could I be at odds with the whole world?
Try being an antinatalist, as in not wishy-washy "oh I like kids and wouldn't tell others what to do but I just wouldn't want any of my own" childfree but firmly believing that maybe things might be different if humanity would realize the full positive potential of its level of knowledge and development, but as things stand, now that we have the body of knowledge and access to information necessary to know the problems and the impact, bringing another person into this world is at least as bad a crime as taking a life, and possibly even worse.
... And a supporter of deep ecology but not the non-intervention clause, considering that, while obviously not having the right to exploit at will, humans' position as the dominant species that can shape the world gives us the responsibility of being its stewards and helping the other species and the ecosystem.
... And a radical leftist that's as much against the classical left systems (like socialism and the theoretical concept of communism) as against capitalism, wanting to do away with any need to earn a living and salaried jobs and doing something in order to gain more for yourself and private enterprise beyond the very small scale in general and guaranteeing a decent standard of living for all, freeing people to do what they want, if/when they want, rather as a hobby, getting rid of both poverty and wealth and offering more, making some well off but definitely still leagues below today's rich, as just rewards for important achievements bringing significant benefits for others and/or the environment and/or solving crises the person in question obviously had no role in creating.
... And really believing in personal freedom as long as the ways in which one would use theirs doesn't violate the above principles or restrict the freedom of others more than not doing so would restrict theirs, which view creates conflicts both with conservatives and with progressives / modern "liberals" who push more and more to impose their rules and views on all at least as much as conservatives push theirs, said views tending to become similarly restrictive, the only difference being that they are rather opposite.
... Or, on another note, seeing relationships as the main priority when it comes to more personal matters and holding firm to the idea that the free choice should be whether to start a relationship, as once that happens, if different rules aren't clearly stated from the get go, it should be for life, though not exclusive unless that's also explicitly stated and agreed to from the get go, barring extreme circumstances like repeated abuse or involvement in serious illegal activities, and that if one's partner isn't guilty of such things it may well be less of a crime to kill them than to "just" break up with them if they still absolutely desire to stay together, and also that if someone can get over a breakup, they never really cared in the first place.
... And could probably come up with other things too. But, ya know, if you want to be at odds with everyone, I have plenty of experience :))
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kohlrak: It's kinda like a "would you kill baby Hitler?" question.
Always wondered why's that a question. I mean, if it's posed, it means it's assumed you can time travel, in which case why kill baby Hitler, who at that point is innocent, and leave the following decades as they are, with the same conditions that are likely to let history straighten itself out and let those conditions push someone else in his place anyway? Shouldn't you be doing something about those conditions that led to someone like him being in charge, and his actions being acceptable, if not even desirable, for many? Or, if all you can do is a pinpoint action, at least eliminate him when he becomes crucial to the ensuing disaster, and therefore both guilty of it and much harder to replace?
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kohlrak: But you have been granted unprecedented power. You see, the world before you, everyone you know and love, disagrees with pretty much everything you believe in, and not even reverse psychology works. In exchange for this curse, you have been given the power to possess any human being on earth (including many at the same time), forcing them to do whatever you desire, but are completely unable to change their genuine opinion on a topic of ethics, morality, law, etc. While you can control, effectively, what laws and regulations are passed, which are not, as well as make others do deeds that you desire them to do, do you choose to ever exercise this power? If so, why?
There is already a force that has those attributes - Pride.
Pride can make people do things like puppets on strings, and it can go against everything that person believes. The best thing about it is, people think they are making their own choices! mwwaahhh
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kohlrak: So what makes you the arbiter of who is deserving of what? Are you expecting equality of outcome, rather than equality of opportunity?
Not sure that makes any sense in the context of what I said.

Please point out where I would be doing what you claim.

Equality of outcome and equality of opportunity, sounds like corrupted Capitalist double-talk.

Democracy and Capitalism are great things if properly understood, controlled and not abused.
The moment you let those with all the money have all the power and control, is the moment they lose their validity.

Fairness all by itself provides opportunity, and equality is a natural consequence ... in so far as anything can ever be naturally equal.
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kohlrak: [...]
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WinterSnowfall: That's a fairly deep question OP. Well, I suppose I'd have everyone spend a day or more as other people around the world. My main belief is that most hatred and conflict stems out of ignorance and lack of empathy, which can never be addressed since each man is an island, stuck with his own thoughts, views, problems. Even if this experience has the potential to widen the gap (with counter-examples), it can still do good. Imagine spending a day in the life of a serial killer or of someone who is clinically insane. It may sound like a nightmare, but maybe it will also make one better appreciate his own life, no matter how challenging it is.

P.S. I'm going to take this chance to recommend this novel: https://www.sfsite.com/02a/bm121.htm to anyone who is into biology/physiology and/or SF.
Well, i noticed, too, that there seems to be a bit of forced interactions. There are some cultures that are most certainly incompatible to the degree of peaceful interactions. That's not to say that the cultures can't change, but until that happens it's best to keep them separated. Islamic and Hindu culture, for example, is very, very incompatible. Japanese and American culture is compatible to a degree, but americans are likely to become violent in response to certain parts of it. In particular with these examples i'm referring to unyielding characteristics. The differences between the two have to be understood for peaceful interactions, whenever such is even possible.
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kohlrak: "my rights end where yours begin."
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KiNgBrAdLeY7: Couldn't have presented it any better myself! This should be in bold, really!
The problem is, that phrase is way, way too vague.
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kohlrak: You're ignoring the whole point of the question by ignoring the ethical considerations: do you as a person feel that you would be properly justified in violating peoples' will by being such a tyrant? If you had the power to force change against the will of others, would you choose to use it, or would you choose that it is better that people have the freedom to destroy themselves and suffer the consequences? Would you prevent a drug user from using drugs, even when they firmly believe in said drugs? Would you influence an election knowing full well that the election, when fair, would yield a different result?

The big picture of the question is for people to analyze themselves. Hitler certainly believed that what he was doing was what was best for the world. If you had believed the same things as Hitler, would you become Hitler? Same with Mao or any other totalitarian. The question, put into the most simple of terms is, "If you had the power to be a tyrant, would you be one, or would you hold to your values of freedom and let the world earn your predicted destruction that it so ardently desires?"
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dtgreene: In this case, it would be better if I were to have the desire to control others, because then everybody else would not.
That's reasonable, but on the other hand you're the one we know for sure would be capable of it, in this scenario. Is it better for 1 person to have it and the desire, or for the whole world to have the desire, but not capability?
Post edited February 26, 2021 by kohlrak
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dtgreene: In this case, it would be better if I were to have the desire to control others, because then everybody else would not.
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kohlrak: That's reasonable, but on the other hand you're the one we know for sure would be capable of it, in this scenario. Is it better for 1 person to have it and the desire, or for the whole world to have the desire, but not capability?
There's also this consideration:
* If I'm the one with the desire and capability, then chances I probably wouldn't use it to commit grave evils (like mass genocide).
* If everyone else has the desire but not the capability, then chances are at least one would find a way to get the power needed to commit genocide, and everyone except me would not have a problem with that (and I would choose not to intervene with my power due to lack of desire). Remember, this sort of thing happened in the Germany in the 1930s, and it could happen again (and almost certainly has in other parts of the world).
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kohlrak: But you have been granted unprecedented power. You see, the world before you, everyone you know and love, disagrees with pretty much everything you believe in, and not even reverse psychology works. In exchange for this curse, you have been given the power to possess any human being on earth (including many at the same time), forcing them to do whatever you desire, but are completely unable to change their genuine opinion on a topic of ethics, morality, law, etc. While you can control, effectively, what laws and regulations are passed, which are not, as well as make others do deeds that you desire them to do, do you choose to ever exercise this power? If so, why?
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mystikmind2000: There is already a force that has those attributes - Pride.
Pride can make people do things like puppets on strings, and it can go against everything that person believes. The best thing about it is, people think they are making their own choices! mwwaahhh
The irony being, saying "yes" almost requires pride to begin with. Who's really manipulating who? Still, exploitation of pride usually requires knowing a bit more about someone. Also, i've met plenty who seem to have none at all.
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kohlrak: So what makes you the arbiter of who is deserving of what? Are you expecting equality of outcome, rather than equality of opportunity?
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Timboli: Not sure that makes any sense in the context of what I said.

Please point out where I would be doing what you claim.

Equality of outcome and equality of opportunity, sounds like corrupted Capitalist double-talk.

Democracy and Capitalism are great things if properly understood, controlled and not abused.
The moment you let those with all the money have all the power and control, is the moment they lose their validity.

Fairness all by itself provides opportunity, and equality is a natural consequence ... in so far as anything can ever be naturally equal.
It's not necessarily capitalist, but non-determinist. Fundamentally, if opportunity is equal, and there are differences in choices (free will), then there will inevitably be inequality of outcome.
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kohlrak: That's reasonable, but on the other hand you're the one we know for sure would be capable of it, in this scenario. Is it better for 1 person to have it and the desire, or for the whole world to have the desire, but not capability?
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dtgreene: There's also this consideration:
* If I'm the one with the desire and capability, then chances I probably wouldn't use it to commit grave evils (like mass genocide).
* If everyone else has the desire but not the capability, then chances are at least one would find a way to get the power needed to commit genocide, and everyone except me would not have a problem with that (and I would choose not to intervene with my power due to lack of desire). Remember, this sort of thing happened in the Germany in the 1930s, and it could happen again (and almost certainly has in other parts of the world).
Well, the question is, "what's your price?" And certainly it doesn't have to be monetary. You have the power to control people, but not change their beliefs. What are you going to do when mortality is approached? Are you truly incapable of grave evils? Let's be clear, Utopians commit atrocities in the name of the ends justifying the means: in other words, to achieve their utopia, all can be sacrificed. Would you honestly not reach for some utopian ideal, when you see yourself facing mortality with no legacy, yet you have desire to control others against their will?
Post edited February 26, 2021 by kohlrak
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kohlrak: That's reasonable, but on the other hand you're the one we know for sure would be capable of it, in this scenario. Is it better for 1 person to have it and the desire, or for the whole world to have the desire, but not capability?
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dtgreene: There's also this consideration:
* If I'm the one with the desire and capability, then chances I probably wouldn't use it to commit grave evils (like mass genocide).
* If everyone else has the desire but not the capability, then chances are at least one would find a way to get the power needed to commit genocide, and everyone except me would not have a problem with that (and I would choose not to intervene with my power due to lack of desire). Remember, this sort of thing happened in the Germany in the 1930s, and it could happen again (and almost certainly has in other parts of the world).
i cant see how you wouldnt do anything with political flag+bio
yeah the same is happening in the usa atm like with coca-cola
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dtgreene: There's also this consideration:
* If I'm the one with the desire and capability, then chances I probably wouldn't use it to commit grave evils (like mass genocide).
* If everyone else has the desire but not the capability, then chances are at least one would find a way to get the power needed to commit genocide, and everyone except me would not have a problem with that (and I would choose not to intervene with my power due to lack of desire). Remember, this sort of thing happened in the Germany in the 1930s, and it could happen again (and almost certainly has in other parts of the world).
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Orkhepaj: i cant see how you wouldnt do anything with political flag+bio
yeah the same is happening in the usa atm like with coca-cola
Last time I checked, there wasn't anything inherently political about my flag or bio; the only reason one might think that is if one chooses to politicize things that shouldn't be considered political.
Oh look, it's a thinly veiled attempt to discuss politics on a vidya gaming forum.

I like it.
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rojimboo: Oh look, it's a thinly veiled attempt to discuss politics on a vidya gaming forum.

I like it.
You call this veiled? No, i'm more interested in fundamentals here. If you look at the posters in this thread and compare their politics in other threads, you'll notice individuals who are normally in agreement on this topic would be at odds with each other in other topics, and vice versa.
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kohlrak: No, i'm more interested in fundamentals here. If you look at the posters in this thread and compare their politics in other threads, you'll notice individuals who are normally in agreement on this topic would be at odds with each other in other topics, and vice versa.
What do you mean? Are you implying some sort of contradiction amongst certain political affinities?

What is this contradiction you refer to?
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Orkhepaj: i cant see how you wouldnt do anything with political flag+bio
yeah the same is happening in the usa atm like with coca-cola
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dtgreene: Last time I checked, there wasn't anything inherently political about my flag or bio; the only reason one might think that is if one chooses to politicize things that shouldn't be considered political.
I see we still haven't learned that everything is political. Politics is about arguing for enforcing morality discussions with force of some kind. What's the difference between a political discussion about guns in games and a moral one: whether we're talking about whether or not it should or should not be legal. To that end, i find it untenable to say that anything is non-political. You and I would indeed be in agreement, however, on the validity of whether or not it should be ppolitical, however. That said, once it's in the arena, it has become so, and i think one being willing to say their beliefs in the face of danger (which is essentially what politics boils down to over time, especially these days) is something to honor, not deny.
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kohlrak: No, i'm more interested in fundamentals here. If you look at the posters in this thread and compare their politics in other threads, you'll notice individuals who are normally in agreement on this topic would be at odds with each other in other topics, and vice versa.
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rojimboo: What do you mean? Are you implying some sort of contradiction amongst certain political affinities?

What is this contradiction you refer to?
I have people who are left and right who are in agreement in desiring tyranny if it means they get what they want, and i got people on both sides who are very hesitant to say the same. There's a reason why people have bfeen pushing for 2d and even 3d or n-dimensional political compasses.
Post edited February 26, 2021 by kohlrak