I know and think this system would be superior to the proposed dungeon system since you would be saving progress even if you dont complete it as opposed to the one implemented by JRPGs, hence why I like this system.

You can definitely make an argument for it because its arguably "exploiting" a flaw in the system. If enemies respawn, you are arguably "cheesing" an encounter to get to access to some powerful weapon or ability that should be beyond what you can access normally by "abusing" this save system to enter a higher difficulty area early and basically bee line toward the item or weapon in question, using your most powerful abilities to get to the weapon and essentially "save" to return back to a point of safety without having to fight your way back. More an exploit and not playing "as the devs intended." Same with fast travel if you run into random encounters. Instead of fighting through waves of mobs with your weakened party and spent abilities/items with a risk of party wipe, you are "bypassing" by fast travelling to the safe area by saving and quitting.

Its an old argument but have heard and dont consider it cheating but have heard the argument that it is because it is exploiting the system. GIven that games are basically now made to encourage exploiting, you dont hear that argument that much anymore though but I wont be surprised if some people still hold that opinion.

[Might & Magic 2 puzzle solution spoiler ahead]

Back in the day, exploits were often not considered cheating. In fact, I have a couple examples from early WRPGs regarding this:
* Wizardry 1: There is a famous bug in the Apple 2 version where, by having a bishop identify item 9, said bishop will earn 100 million XP. Back in the day, there was a publication called Wizinews, and it had an article about how to beat Wizardry 1 without cheating, and the article suggested using that glitch.
* Might & Magic 2: At one point, you'll get a Diamond Ring, but if you leave the area you get it in, you will have it confiscated and be thrown into prison. However, you can smuggle it out if you give it to a hireling and then dismiss them. This is all well and good, and might feel like an exploit. *But*, then there;s the Element Orb. This item is in a similar situation; if you get it and then try to leave, you'll get the message "The Orb denies you exit!", and won't be allowed to leave, so you end up having to use the same trick to smuggle it out. The thing is, the Element Orb is a quest item; you need it in a certain spot, a spot that's definitely not in the dungeon the orb appears in, to complete a major quest.

In any case, I reserve the term 'cheating", when it comes to video games, to things that modify the game or the game state directly, or to what are clearly marked as cheat features (like console commands). In particular, this means that:
* Using a major exploit, even if clearly a bug, is not cheating.
* Installing a fan patch that fixes said bug, on the other hand, *is* cheating, as you've modified the game.

This just becomes a discussion of what is ”cheating". By your definition, modding is cheating while others would argue that it is just adding "life improvement" measures to a game or removing annoyances like weight limits. I do tend to agree that mods that affect gameplay tend to be cheating unless they make the game harder.

Exploits are much more murky and I can see arguments for them being cheats. Just because Wizinews doesnt consider it cheating doesnt mean other publications also would not consider it cheating to use the exploit. Given the fact that this bug is only available for Apple 2 players and not NES which cant access the 9th slot makes this exploit lean more toward a version-specific glitch not intended in the game which can be considered cheating.

In modern times, using exploits isnt considered cheating as long as its part of the game given that many speedrunners basically make runs possible by finding these exploits and learning to pull them off consistently while modding is always frowned upon. To me, using exploits isnt a big deal and knowing and using exploits is part of also understanding the game imo but that is just part of each person's experience.

It's fine. Much better than hunting down save points. It's basically just a checkpoint system anyway. Or one of those things where upon death, you just respawn a little bit aways.

I'd argue that even mods that making the game harder would be considered cheating, as you're not really playing the same game anymore.

Of course, there are some mods out there that change so much of the game that it really isn't the same game. For example, there's apparently a series of TES mods, which happen to be available as free "purchases" on GOG for those who own the base game, that completely change the game, If someone installs the Skyrim mod Enderal and completes it, I would argue that the player has not actually beaten Skyrim as they clearly have not been playing the same game that those without the mod are playing.

But would you consider casting spells in the surprise round, which is possible in the Apple 2 version but not the NES version, to be an exploit? (Keep in mind that this also applies to the enemies.)

Or taking advantage of the ability to use LATUMAPIC outside of combat and have it last the entire expedition in the NES version? It doesn't work like that in the Apple 2 version (and is basically useless as a result).

There's also the fact that, in the NES version, AC does not work for party members, so the re's no point in wearing armor.
Some things to note, regarding exploits and modding in speedruns:
* Typically, a game will have multiple speedrun categories, and often there's the difference in terms of what exploits are allowed. For example, most Zelda: A Link to the Past categories don't allow you to just glitch your way to the end, skipping the entire game.
* There are a few cases in which speedrunners do use mods. For example, sometimes cutscene removers are used, and there's at least one case that has a category where players use a mod to guarantee a rare item drop that drastically affects the run.
* There's cases where the whole point it to speedrun a mod. Consider, for example, Mario romhacks, which are sometimes speedrun. Or, randomizers. I've also seen speedruns of Celeste custom maps. If someone were to speedrun Skyrim with the Enderal mod, that would definitely work as a category distinct from vanilla Skyrim runs (and would probably be listed as a separate game, given how much the mod changes).

Fair point. I do think the benefit of mods is to really either make the game easier or breathe new life into a game. I do think mods amping up the difficulty help the game's longevity by creating a new experience which is different from the original but cheating is done to gain an advantage so I dont see making an experience harder (putting the player at more of a disadvantage) is cheating.

I dont know enough of Wizardy and its development history but Im guessing the devs intended to allow players to cast spells in the surprise round which can be chalked up to version differences (such a different content between the Gamecube, Xbox, and Playstation versions of Soul Calibur. Its not like using these characters are "cheating" although sometimes they are unbalanced like Yoda apparently was due to a small hitbox and high damage output). I dont think the devs intended the player to gain millions of exp by a single action to be part of the game experience though.

Again, its a question of intention and exploits arnt really considered cheating now anyway.

Although subcategories do differ based on exploits in speedrunning, modding games do seem to be frowned upon or the Dream scandal with Minecraft wouldnt have been a big deal with him being accused of cheating.

Even if games are defined as "glitchless," glitches are also still used to cut times (an infamous joke with Mirrors Edge) so exploits are still heavily used with speedrunners considering them legitimate. But mods do seem to be frowned upon unless they are absolutely necessary because something is incredibly RNG-based.

And when speedrunning a mod, as you point out its a different game essentially so shouldnt be compared with the original.

The "millions of XP" gain is clearly a bug.

For spells in the surprise round, what happened, I believe, is this:
* Apple 2 version is released. Spells can be used in the surprise round.
* People play the Apple 2 version. People get their parties killed because some group of hostile casters ambushes them and blasts them to death before the player can enter a command. This is widely felt as being frustrating and unfair.
* In later releases, including the Apple 2 version of Wizardry 2, the ability to cast spells in the surprise round is no longer present, neither for the player or for the enemy, preventing this from happening.

So, the change is clearly deliberate, and is due to the original behavior being perceived as unfair (as it probably is, particularly in a game with permadeath-like saving).
Modding is acceptable in speedruns or similar competitions provided that everyone agrees to the use of the mod beforehand. (If there's posted rules for the game/category, any allowed (or, in some cases, required) mods would be listed.)

Another thing worth noting: Emulator tools such as save states are explicitly forbidden in RTA speed runs, but are explicitly allowed in tool-assisted speedruns (TAS). You just don't see the save state usage because the input sequence is re-recorded when a save state is loaded, though the results are sometimes obvious (like the player getting so lucky it had to have been manipulated).