This is a recurring point, in the forums. People referring to the "maturity" of games, whether in reference to graphics components, or to themes. With different approaches. "Mature" because sex and violence. "Mature" because the evocated themes wouldn't resonate with kids. "Mature" because it expresses a wise, thoughtful, experienced perspective on life. And the underlying question : can our computer toys be mature, or do the gameplay requirements prevent it, turning them into interactive art when they attempt to overcome them.

So, general questions. Which videogames do you consider "mature" (in accordance to your own understanding of the notion), and for what reasons ?

why can't games be "interactive art "?

also: https://store.steampowered.com/app/419460/That_Dragon_Cancer/

This depends on how people define "game". See all the threads about the releases of "walking simulators", "visual novels", and even "hidden objects", questionning this. You often get "I want a game, not a lesson on this, or an experience of that". So, that's part the question. Are "mature games" still "games" if they eschew traditional gameplay, is eschewing traditional gameplay a requirement in order to have truly mature content, etc...

short answer - yes

As far as I am concerned - a game needs a goal, have rules, have interactivity and some form of conflict. It has some degree of those four, it is a game.

Cat Lady fits all those themes in just about every way you'd care to define a "mature" game, both thematically, in tone, in mechanics, writing and I definitely don't ever see it becoming kid friendly.

It's an adult game, for adults, and I don't mean that in the porn sense of the word, but the original intent of the word, much like the X rating was supposed to be introduced for the sake of more artistically inclined directors who didn't want to be shackled within the bounds of PG ratings, etc.

Unfortunately, the term, much like "adult" or "mature," became synonymous with porn or gratuitous amounts of sex, thanks to porno chic culture, and its original intent was lost. Now, the term has become a bit of a black mark on both movies and to some degree, games, with the exception of "mature," which is given out to anything with gratuitous violence, then worn like the red badge of edginess, so preteens can get their CoD/BF/flavor of the month fix.

There's a place for fun and cartoony games that you can just mindlessly sit down and play, and I still replay games like Commander Keen, Captain Comic, insert classic PC/Console platformer here, but as I've grown older, I begin to appreciate more adult entertainment media in tone or theme, as a lot of those games released to appeal to as wide an audience as possible have started to simply become schlock. Furthermore, in my opinion, soulless schlock that lacks a lot of the fun factor that used to be infused into them.

I would also say Max Payne, The Witcher series, Killer 7, Killer Is Dead, GTA (despite a lot of its commentary being satirical in nature, they do hit the nail on the head occasionally, and tell decent stories alongside it.)

That's a bullshit question, for me: my mind stopped developing at 12, maybe 15 years, and now the only thing that's ageing is my body :-D

I'm 42, wearing a Hogwarts t-shirt and hanging out in a game forum.

WTF do I know about mature? :P

This is a reasonable question, but it's clear the issue comes from ESRB: Games with a "mature audience" rating are called "mature" for content only meant for "mature audience" or "people of the age of majority." Honestly, I think that was a terrible naming convention, because Hyperdimension Neptunia, for example, has content that's risque, but not really "mature." However, the game is clearly for an older audience: people who've been around long enough to even understand the references. Shenzhen I/O or TIS-100 is clearly for mature audiences, who are mature enough to understand conditional execution and maybe programming. Dungeon Keeper is similar, as it's not particularly violent or anything, but the jokes and gameplay require maturity. Then, on the flip side, we have things like Leisure Suit Larry, Mafia, Huniepop which don't require as much maturity, but have adult-themed content (and a load of immature behaviors associated with them). But, altogether, mature can be a misnomer there, too. You can find people who are in their 30s, who couldn't handle the complexity of some of these games.

If the context doesn't make the intended meaning of "mature" clear enough, we really should explicitly ask, because, frankly, neither meaning is particularly obvious strictly from the word (as apparent by the post). It's useful in a sense that "yo, you shouldn't let your 10 year old play this," but that could be for complexity or victorian purposes, which might be more useful to clarify in certain situations (for example, someone might want to be a bit more victorian in the gaming selection if they're married or other type of relationship and they have stricter opinions on what they're OK with their significant other doing).

I'm going to go and reach a little and say Terranigma is a mature game I've played: It deals with the resurrection of the world, and influencing the development of it, and ultimately being rebirthed yourself.

My understanding of mature games would be: realistic view on life, giving choices that matter, requiring you to think about what you are doing. This is surely a continuum, some games can be more mature than others.

Don't want to name any particular example now because I would probably need to play them again a bit each in order to better estimate the maturity. In any case it's not really the inclusion of sex and crime. That is only a minor point of maturity.

I honestly dont think too much about the maturity of videogames, you know how some people like to talk about games "growing up", I don't feel like that's nuanced enough to have a productive conversation.
I like think of videogames as a medium first and as art second, it all depends on whats the intent behind it and the overall execution, some games are arcadey entertainment like tetris, others feel more like a fancy interactive museum, some just try to tell a good story, some are just intended to titilate and dont pretend to be anything more, and then you have everything in between.

I dont really have a reliable way to say "yeah this one is mature while this one is not", you can be sure up to a point, Im not talking about comparing Kirby to This War of Mine, Im thinking more on the lines of any IE game compared to lets say Max Payne.
One is meant to replicate a tabletop experience, the other is an homage to John Woo movies, comic books and film noir, if we are not talking about adult themes like sex and violence the relative "maturity" is difficult to gauge, the CRPG may have more meaningful interactions and give you more room to come into contact with them but Max Payne really nails the feel and the style its going for. If you ask me they both achieved what they set out to do, it doesn't really matter if they really are mature or not.

The again you can talk about the maturity of Titty Anime Game 7 vs Artsy Fartsy Walking Simulator 2018 but to reiterate the point they are not trying do the same thing either.

Casual observation: I've been playing the original Postal quite a bit recently and I absolutely love how during the parental advisory splash screen they put "mature" in quotation marks when they say that this game "is intended for "mature" audiences". They seem to be on the same page with Telika.

As for mature (sans quotation marks) games I know, there aren't that many. I'd consider Among The Sleep as a mature game, despite the fact that you play a toddler. The game deals with some serious issues, which are explored metaphorically within a horror game. The horror elements actually serve to tell the story, they're not just a means to an end.

I'd rate Detention (not yet on gog, FOR SHAME!) as a mature game. Again, it's a horror game, crossed with coming-of-age story. Through the mechanics you get to explore a nation's recent history, you get a taste of what it's like to grow up in an oppressive regime, you get to learn about history and East Asian religion and mysticism, you experience the helplessness as your parents' marriage is falling apart and it asks you some very uncomfortable questions: What would YOU do if you were this situation?

I'm sure there are many others, but those are two examples that come to my mind right away.

I hardly ever come across the word 'mature' when it comes to video games in any other context than to refer to content that is sexual, violent, scary or morally questionable. I'm not really sure I could point to a video game that strictly targets adults for any other reason than what I mentioned above. I guess there are subtleties of the story or an interaction, perhaps of character motivation, that may go over the head of a younger individual; but I can't say I have noticed any game that seem to primarily appeal to older gamer (unless we're talking about for nostalgia reasons), the way that certain films or books do.

Perhaps the game mechanics serves to bridge the gap; kinda like how games clearly targeted to children can still appeal to adults, because while the story and subject matter may be completely forgettable, the game mechanics can make up for it.

Games?! Among the books, I've read the only mature ones were by Anjey Sapkowskii and Umberto Eko. Sure, there were other books with mature content, complex stories and sci-fi settings you would have to have a science degree to understand. But any of them could be read and understood by child if this child was smart enough. None required their reader to grow up and have emotional maturity.

Games, he says.

Some of the Wadjeteye games seemed fairly mature to me, Resonance and Technobabylon especially. Not that they were profound on a philosophical level, but they dealt with interesting issues like mass surveillance, the potential of biotechnology etc. in an above-average way.
I also appreciated "A golden wake" which is basically a story about failure in life...if your life hasn't taken quite the trajectory you wanted, that's something you can identify with. Also interesting for the historical background.
Planescape Torment is an obvious candidate of course. It's a bit overrated imo, but its plot deals with interesting themes of identity and guilt.
I also think Age of decadence could be mentioned. To some extent it has the wrong kind of "mature" (too much vulgarity and cynicism), but I've never played another rpg which eschews the simplistic good-evil binary to such a degree.
Apart from that, I can't think of much right now...gaming mostly is pretty silly tbh.