Just wondering what your preference regarding these methods of leveling up in games that have this system. Specifically, it's for gaining a level once you've earned enough XP (or satisfies whatever other requirements the game imposes, like skill increases to level in Elder Scrolls games):

Here is how I define things:
* Manual leveling is when, to level up, you perform an action that has no other choice. This can include such things as going to a training hall and training (see, for example, Might & Magic or Gold Box), or even just clicking that level up icon (Wizardry 8, Baldur's Gate).
* Automatic leveling is when, once you've met the requirement, the game automatically gives you the level. This is common in JRPGs when you just get the level up message at the end of combat, though I've seen this in some WRPGs (Wizardry 6/7, later SSI games like Dungeon Hack and I believe the Dark Sun games).
* There's also semi-automatic, when the leveling occurs when you perform an action that you'd probably be doing otherwise. Wizardry 1-5, where leveling up happens when you go to the inn, is an example of this; we also see this in Daggerfall and Morrowind. (Oblivion's resting is almost never required for non-leveling reasons, and Arena's leveling is automatic.)

Personally, I think I prefer manual leveling in any game where you have to level carefully, either because of level scaling or factors (RNG or otherwise) that can affect stat growth. Automatic leveling, I think, only really becomes preferable in games where manual leveling would be painful (see, for example, Disgaia, where gaining hundreds of levels at once is quite possible in the post-game).

Your thoughts?

There are some games where leveling up restores your HP/MP, in which case being able to trigger it manually could be advantageous. Sort of a mid-dungeon refresh. Otherwise I just prefer for the process to happen automatically. While it is possible to cause problems by leveling up too much, you can usually control that by avoiding enemy encounters if necessary.

I actually happen to dislike that mechanic. I could, for example, mention my experience with Final Fantasy Adventure, where it felt like the mechanic broke the need to worry about conserving MP or using items to restore it; my (mostly) pure mage playthrough ended up not using ethers much because, before I would run out of MP when casting Fire on everything, I would level up and get MP back.

There's also the fact that I dislike having to precisely track XP (particularly when automatic leveling is involved as in the case I mentioned), and that it gives high level characters a drawback that I don't particularly like, which can essentially punish the player for leveling up, which feels uncomfortably close to enemy level scaling, a mechanic that, judging from a previous topic I made, is a mechanic that players do not like. I prefer those to be placed by the developers, or to involve a consumable that the player needs to have on hand. I feel that being able to avoid all encounters cheapens the experience.

Also, what if I find the battle system to be fun? Why should I be punished for engaging with the fun part of the game?

"It depends on the game". Even in my own tabletop RPGs, I vary it. (Even within the same system and campaign.)

I feel like I might prefer, slightly, "go do something to initiate level up" But very few games, relatively speaking, do it that way, so it's harder to say for sure.

As for "refill things at level up": I am with dtgreene: It's usually a bad feature, unless the game is one where resource refills are common, plentiful, and dungeons aren't meant to be tests of attrition. I do, however, p refer the "lite" version of that that you should gain the *new* resources gained from the level up (your current HP should increase by the same amount as the max HP) though. But that's also true on any HP/resource gain (from equiping things, toggling skills, and whatnot).

why do you keep insiting on these false dichotomies. it depends completely on the game, the design and the balancing. some games works fine with manual leveling, some works fine with automatic.

You then need to account for cases where the resource drops below 0 because you just unequipped something.

(In Wizardry 8, this can happen with spell points. Usually, negative SP is displayed as 0, but if you're viewing the inventory of a character who just got hexed from a remove curse backfire and the resulting hex pushed the character's SP (in any realm) below 0, then the game will crash with an assertion.)

(Another odd case: In the original SaGa 2 (Final Fantasy Legend 2), equipping an item on a robot will increase its current HP, but unequipping it won't decrease it (unless it's above its new maximum); this can be exploited to heal a robot for free. In the DS remake, equipping items no longer increases a robot's current HP.) There are some game designs where it doesn't make that much difference from a design and balancing perspective.

As already said, it depends completely on the game.

In stuff based on D&D, I want the manual leveling because how else am I supposed to select which class I want to level up. There's also skills and feats to select. Arcane spell casters need to select what new spells they will learn. Games where leveling up is a manual process likewise have something that you need to do, even if it is deciding which stat you want to increase.

In games where it is an automatic process, there isn't you would need to do at level up. There is nothing wrong with it being automatic because otherwise you're pressing a button to level up just for the sake of pressing a button.

Seems to me that the only sort of game where this might be a question is one where all the effects of a level up are fixed, but something happens at that time that the player may not find desirable, like the examples already given of healing (which is desirable, but player will want to choose the moment) or enemy level scaling. Otherwise, if there are any choices to make it must obviously be manual, while if everything's fixed and there are no additional effects of that sort, I guess it could also be manual but it'd be entirely pointless, so it realistically needs to be automatic.

But, anyway, whether the question is about that scenario where it may make a difference or about customizable vs. fixed character development, my answer's the same, manual. Want to customize my build and want to be able to select when such healing occurs, if that's the case. (Reject level scaling as a rule, so there can be no preferred scenario where it exists.)

PS: Was tempted to also say that if there are costs to leveling then it must also be manual, but I guess that's another situation where I should say that I'd strongly prefer it to be manual, because a dev might conceivably make it so the cost is automatically deducted if the resources are available, though the player may save them for something else.

I think I like automatic with manual stat adjustments.

Well, in some games, leveling up is automatic, but it still takes you to a screen where you can make choices. Dragon Quest 8 is an example; as soon as you get enough XP to level up (or, more precisely, as soon as you survive a battle and have enough XP to level up, though in DQ8 the situation where this matters is highly rare and unusual, though possible), the game takes you to the screen where you can (and, in the original PS2 version, have to) distribute skill points.

Wizardry 6 and 7 are like this as well; as soon as you earn enough XP to level up, you're taken to the character's status screen, are given random stat increases, and must then assign skill points and (if applicable) pick a new spell. (I've heard some things about a softlock that can happen if you've maxed out your skills, but still have skill points to spend, though that may have been fixed in Wizardry 7.)

That might be good. I'd probably also go automatic, possibly automatic skill selection. Improvement based on usage or play style, but you can adjust at a safe place like resting.

Really depends on how in depth you want to do. There's also the option of no leveling at all. Improvements are gotten through equipment, or just raw skill (Armored Core is this way, exception if you do so terribly for so long you will get a permanent upgrade as a NG+ bonus).

I'm thinking that level scaling could work if it's confined to an optional area that functions mainly as a training area, while having the game's main content not scale.

For example: Arc the Lad 2 does not have level scaling. However, Arc Arena, which uses the same save file, *does*, allowing Arc Arena to be used to train your characters, then use them back in the main game. Can be useful if you want to get some levels for Arc the Lad 2's final boss, which notoriously has a ludicrous amount of HP. (Hint for that boss: On high HP targets, if the caster's spellcasting stat is powerful enough, Divide will do a lot of damage.)

I would consider that semi-manual/automatic. You're forced into a level up, but there's points you need to spend. It's still fine.

What I don't want is manual level up in a game like Cat Quest. There wouldn't be anything for you to do except to press a button to accept your new level - no points to distribute, skills to increase, or anything else. You spend gold to buy and upgrade spells while stats are determined more by equipment. In this situation, the automatic leveling up makes sense as there is no reason for it to be manual.

I haven't see that particular combination of mechanics.

I have, however, seen games with automatic leveling where your skills upgrade as you level. Problem is, the upgraded skill costs more to use, and there's also situations where the upgraded skill isn't as good as the pre-upgrade skill in some situations. (Example: In Destiny of an Emperor, you learn a technique that cuts the damage you take in half, which is incredibly useful. However, at a certain level, it will "upgrade" to a technique that does something completely different, and isn't as useful. There's also the case of the full heal technique "upgrading" into a skill that's multi-target, but no longer a full heal.)

Well, systems like that have been tried, Final Fantasy 2, and SaGa, but the problem quite simply being that influencing character growth was a matter of RNGJesus, with no stat influence outside of class. (So you couldn't tell if you were about to proc a new level of stamina or something.)