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javier0889: Doom is just an Eye of the Beholder clone (admitted by id themselves)
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Leroux: I seriously doubt they used those words to describe it. :D
I can't find anexact quote right now, but they said one of the most important examples for Doom as an FPS games was Eye of the Beholder.
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javier0889: But you assume past times were better. That's a different case of nostalgia goggles, more subtle than the usual. Doom is just an Eye of the Beholder clone (admitted by id themselves) and far from the innovative piece of tech people makes it to be. It's still a very good example of game design though.
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andysheets1975: Not to speak for the guy, but I don't think that's precisely what he's saying. What he's saying is more along the lines of auteur theory - that, good or bad, the personality of the creator can be glimpsed through the work. That generally works better with smaller projects that aren't focus-tested as much, although it can still apply to blockbusters in the right circumstances.
Size of the team matters not when playtesters are stupid. Examples: Portal 2 was going to be a different game, with a different setting, but playtesters complained there was no GLADOS and no portals applied like in Portal 1. Valve changed it, and we will never know what could have been.

Even worse: Dishonored was going to be a faithful Thief remake but playtesters thought it was hard. They had to make it easier, and the game lost its identity in the process.
Post edited November 17, 2015 by user deleted
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Koalaman108: After playing a bunch of games from my GOG library, and some newer games, I wanted to bring this topic up for discussion. Obviously, this doesn't apply to all games, as there will always be gems and outliers, but this addresses the general feel I am getting from the industry.

I've started feeling that, while a ton of new shiny games are coming out, whenever I play them, I don't find myself getting invested in them like I do when I play Ultima IV, Doom, Wasteland or Duke Nukem 3D. As I think about it more and more, I've come to realise that what these games are missing (At least for me) is the personal touch of the designers and developers. When I play these older games, made by smaller teams, I get a strong feel for who the people who worked on the game were. Doom oozes heavy metal and Alien fandom, and really gives you a good idea of who Id Software were and what they liked. Duke Nukem 3D may be ultra-referential, but I feel like I know George Broussard a whole lot better after playing it (A nerdy kid who's into 80s action films, and all the silly, over-the-top goofyness that went with them).

It may seem like a stupid point, but to me, that's a big reason of why I play games. It's why I follow my favourite game developers and designers on twitter, and check frequently to see if they're working on something new. Every time I play their games, it feels like we're having this silent conversation. By simply playing the game, I am experiencing a piece of that person, and that makes the game more memorable than all the flashy graphics in the world.
WIthout naming games, your question doesn't mean much.

You name Batman Arkham Asylum and ARkham City as recent games you have liked. What else have you played? What have you played that you didn't like?
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javier0889: But you assume past times were better. That's a different case of nostalgia goggles, more subtle than the usual. Doom is just an Eye of the Beholder clone (admitted by id themselves) and far from the innovative piece of tech people makes it to be. It's still a very good example of game design though.
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andysheets1975: Not to speak for the guy, but I don't think that's precisely what he's saying. What he's saying is more along the lines of auteur theory - that, good or bad, the personality of the creator can be glimpsed through the work. That generally works better with smaller projects that aren't focus-tested as much, although it can still apply to blockbusters in the right circumstances.
You get me, man <3
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misteryo: WIthout naming games, your question doesn't mean much.

You name Batman Arkham Asylum and ARkham City as recent games you have liked. What else have you played? What have you played that you didn't like?
The biggest examples I have is Skyrim and Deus Ex: Human Revolution. Those games had so much and yet so little, and I nothing in them drew me in. They felt like they lacked personality, and, as redundant as it's getting, soul.
Post edited November 17, 2015 by Koalaman108
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andysheets1975: Not to speak for the guy, but I don't think that's precisely what he's saying. What he's saying is more along the lines of auteur theory - that, good or bad, the personality of the creator can be glimpsed through the work. That generally works better with smaller projects that aren't focus-tested as much, although it can still apply to blockbusters in the right circumstances.
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Koalaman108: You get me, man <3
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misteryo: WIthout naming games, your question doesn't mean much.

You name Batman Arkham Asylum and ARkham City as recent games you have liked. What else have you played? What have you played that you didn't like?
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Koalaman108: The biggest examples I have is Skyrim and Deus Ex: Human Revolution. Those games had so much and yet so little, and I nothing in them drew me in. They felt like they lacked personality, and, as redundant as it's getting, soul.
Well, two games you like and two you don't isn't really a trend in the industry.
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javier0889: Size of the team matters not when playtesters are stupid. Examples: Portal 2 was going to be a different game, with a different setting, but playtesters complained there was no GLADOS and no portals applied like in Portal 1. Valve changed it, and we will never know what could have been.
Don't tell me they also complained that the game needed a Jar Jar Binks comic relief character in addition to GLADOS. :P That's pretty terrible, I knew there was something off about the single player story. I wish they would have just gone through with their original plan. I don't get why people always want sequels with more of the same, it kills creativity. :(
Post edited November 17, 2015 by Leroux
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Charon121: Nowadays there's at least one new release worth the asking price per month, while GOG.com keeps me abundantly supplied with old games I want to replay or old games I never played back when they were hot stuff. Add the limited gaming time to the mix, and there's no chance I can play the game for long enough for it to feel special to me with so many new games to try.
This is completely it for me.

I love GoG, I love the chance to replay old favourites and to get new and old games cheaply.
But I feel that getting so many games has somewhat ruined my enjoyment of them.
I no longer play every game to the full because I've spent £50 on it and can't afford to buy another for a few months. Now, once I get a little bored with a game I can drop it and play another, and not feel bad because I spent less on the game then I did on my lunch.

So maybe games feel more soulless partially because we engage less with them. We no longer spend hundreds of hours on every game we get (which is also a side effect of getting older and having more responsibilities and less free time) and so we don't feel the same 'soul' that we may have in the past...
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Koalaman108: You get me, man <3

The biggest examples I have is Skyrim and Deus Ex: Human Revolution. Those games had so much and yet so little, and I nothing in them drew me in. They felt like they lacked personality, and, as redundant as it's getting, soul.
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misteryo: Well, two games you like and two you don't isn't really a trend in the industry.
Deus ex human, well it wasn't original deus ex but as a some sort of sequel it was totally awesome especially compared to that what was it deus ex 2 invisible war.. I remember looking loading screens more than enjoying the game and i eventually finished it.. and it kinda sucked imo. human revolution was a fresh start which was quite good I hope next one is at least as good, hopefully better (like sequels should be). Did i like adam Jensen? Well, I did like him enough to make him dance. ^^

Edit. I did infact like adam jensens voice actor because he seemed a lot like emotionless robot like in the first one.. Still JC denton is best ever.

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09vVF-Hvykg
Post edited November 18, 2015 by Antimateria
No. The thing that a lot of people seem to forget about when thinking back to the "good ol' days" of whatever medium, is that time acts as an incredible filter. It's easy to look back and think that things were better "back then", but the reason why is because usually you're only seeing the best stuff. With new stuff, time hasn't filtered it out, so you're seeing a lot of things that people decades from now will have never heard of or remember. And then, they'll be asking the same questions, pointing to our present time as an example of "when things were better".
imo, yes, most of them new games.
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Koalaman108: I have no nostalgic connection to any of the games I mentioned, except Doom.
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javier0889: But you assume past times were better. That's a different case of nostalgia goggles, more subtle than the usual. Doom is just an Eye of the Beholder clone (admitted by id themselves) and far from the innovative piece of tech people makes it to be. It's still a very good example of game design though.
That’s not what he said. The opening post wasn't about quality, or originality. It was about being able to tell something about individuals behind the game through their work. Personality tends to get diluted when teams are comprised of hundreds of members as the first response points out.
Auteur theory is bullshit. I don't give the slightest bit of a fuck about the personality of the creator. Humanity doesn't give the slightest bit of a fuck about the personality of the creator. We're not the devs' schoolteachers to care about who really came up with what they present (as long as said person gets agreed-upon recognition and compensation). What we care about is a good end product.

Every decision engenders billions upon billions of could have beens. Test audiences CAN make your specific product worse, but, generally speaking, they make products better. That's why they're used. FFS you trust the author's genius to come up with something extraordinarily awesome that you're willing to sacrifice part of your life to experience it, but you don't trust the very same person to recognize a better idea when they see one.

Now executive meddling is a thing, but Valve is literally the worst example. Valve has always been doing whatever they want, artistically speaking. That's why there's a new Assassin's Creed and a new CoD like every week but still no HL3 (not that I care). What we would've got had Valve's devs not listened to the testers would've been ... a BETTER game than Portal 2, but only because said event would've happened in another universe where what they'd come up with WAS actually better than what the testers wanted. In this universe, it wasn't, so they did what they considered best. Now auteurs gave us ME3, man that turned out just great.
No.

There are plenty of games being made with the same size teams, with the same quality of writing and the same amount of love poured into them now as any other point in gaming history. If you're not seeing that then might I suggest that you look a little further beyond EA and Ubisoft's annual sequelathons?

Take a look at the thriving indie scene or the magnificent games that Kickstarter has made possible. Then you'd see there's no basis for what you're saying at all.

If you'd said this just after the turn of the century when every game had to have the same blurry, low poly 3D graphics because 'that's what people want' - a time when the entire PC games market was on its knees and was only saved from extinction by Steam of all things - if you'd said that then, back in the days of shitty console ports, buggy crap chucked out the door and never patched... yeah, then I'd have agreed with you. Definitely. It would have been hard to see it any other way.

But not now, no.
Well, to be honest and fair, they simply don't make them like they used to. And nostalgia google free, i daresay, this statement might truly be. Games like Thief 1 and 2 are simply incomparable to anything modern. Games like oldies invented and pioneered entire genres, were true gems, epic. Even their easter eggs were full of inspiration and talent...

Occasionally, a modern game like The Witcher comes to stir the waters. But someone who has lived well through 90s, is most of the time, going to constantly revisit an old game, instead of replaying a newer one. I know i do.
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mintee: its a loaded question as it depends totally on each individuals taste.
That's the first thing that came to mind as I started to read the thread. A couple more modern titles that are clearly a labor of love are the Stalker games and Bastion. And Driftmoon. Among others.

Tough to define "soul" in a product of 1s and 0s, but I think those modern examples have it - either in the gameplay itself or in the obvious care that went into creating the games.
I think it is about exposure

In the past retail stores won't stock games that they think won't sell. They may miss a few gems, and took in a few crap, but overall the quality of games that is shown to us is higher. You hardly see unpopular XYZ in retail, because stores try their hardest to showcase only popular games, that is mostly of higher quality.

Also there is a delay in shipping games copies from places to places and cost involved. If a game does not sell well in a area, most likely the publishers won't risk shipping them. Of course there are AAA titles that would bypass that, but AAA quality standard, overall, is usually higher than indies.

Thus through curation, the games we are exposed to seems much better than it should.

Enter the digital age, we are exposed to almost new game under the sun without the curation. Of course there are still great games, and the percentage of the new great games may still remain the same for all we know, but we see much more crap games. It does not help when digital media gives publisher new ways to screw the customers.