I feel like I need to take a stand on lift vs. agent

My initial impression of agent was definitely that the slytherin claim was a joke... and pretty funny too. Lift is right about me in that regard - I can't resist

But now both of those guys are sucked down the PM argument rathole

I worry this is town-on-town violence because Lift still seems to be doing his townie thing, even though I think his minimal literalism is counter-productive

This game is getting slightly harder, and I like that!

You know what, let's pull out the big guns and the main reason why you made me go yikes again today.
My PM does not say anything about defeating Slytherin, let alone the houses cooperating to defeat them.

That's as much as I'll say about my PM. You stretched really hard with this speculation. Not all PMs are equal. I'd argue that it's even pointless for the PM to say that you're against the Slytherin, because the Rules, required reading, clearly mention the bad guys are the Slyths.

So no, you're wrong. However, the big deal is not whether you're right or wrong. The big deal is that you very quickly jumped to the conclusion that Agent's not Town based on speculation of something you have zero knowledge about - his PM. You also contributed to making Town's job harder since we're now back again to discussing Houses and PMs. It's not an open setup like ZFR's last game, it's a closed one and we know nothing about what to expect...kinda like Supernatural. And you know how well that worked.

You do have a point in all this however, I am tunneling on you. Despite the rise of other topics such as yogs-RW, I've been focused on you. I could do better.

K then. :)

I can relate....had to puzzle out who to vote for with hardly any good reads many times myself.

OMGUS involved somewhat or no?

Also in his defense most of us have gotten the "it's all houses but 1 against slytherin" vibe from the OP's starting posts/etc......yes, Lift has made some posts/said some things that make me suspect him, but your suspicions of people over(what to me is) somewhat flimsy reasoning also give me pause.

For that I likely won't be removing by vote unless someone else on my main lists of suspects is more likely to get lynched or(slightly more preferably) people vote dumbledore in sufficient numbers(as both of you might be town and i'd rather you both get investigated by any possible investigative PR, if we have one, than lynched & we possibly lose town players).
===================================================

Damn, how did my brain NOT make that connection(Must be because I am preoccupied with several things at once online and offline)? Yeah, that is a bit odd, I think.
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If I'm reading you correctly, we are in agreement on such. Also nicely/succinctly written. :)


I will never be NOT reminded of that one near-flub, will I? ;D

Also that was more of a joke post(on the stance by some that scum only skim read such games) than an actual accusation. :)

Agreed and good points, though(as I said before) I won't fault players that do so to have fun/for other reasons.....as I value fun slightly more than winning anyways.
===============================================================

Low hanging fruit? Hey! o.0

But yeah I see your point and it's true...I am an easy target for scum to make a case on due to my play style.....but eh, it happens.
==================================================================

Um, I think I still have a vote on agent(not counted in your list) and agent is listed as voting twice: on Lift and myself(when he unvoted me already).

Dunno if other mistakes were made, but i'd get that wand checked...it might be broken. ;) o.0
==================================================================

All this back and forth between you two makes me want to post the clip from Wild Wild West(with the actual and fake President Grant fighting back and forth, where he takes them both) for obvious reasons. o.0

(Can't find a clip, though, sadly :()
==================================================================

Look, I get where you're coming from(sitting through some parts of some games that I found boring or disliked), but(and please don't take this too harshly or the wrong way) maybe you/anyone else should think a bit more before entering if you/anyone else feels such a strong desire to want to be lynched/quit during disliked bits of a game that might pop up.

Essentially when players sign up they should do so with the mind/desire to stick to said games with few exceptions(like IRL problems/etc).....otherwise games run the risk of having more people leave at various time for various reasons and games could start to fall apart....we need strong willed and dedicated players to make a game work and run smoothly, in other words(This is not to say anyone I am talking about isn't strong willed or dedicated, btw, in case that comes off as such).

Again, sorry if I come off as "nagging"/etc....I just felt this needed to be said...I AGREE we should stick to having more fun and not focusing on such PM/etc details so much, though/btw.......now back to the game.
======================================================================

At this point either both are town and butting heads/suspicious of each other needlessly(due to their play styles), or one is scum...but if one is scum, then which one??? o.0

==========================================================================
==========================================================================

To all: Caught up till Post 257....if anyone has any questions or wants to reply feel free to while i'm here and available(which will be for the next few hours or so, give or take).

Don’t patronize me with “strong willed players” bullshit. I’ve been involved in several broken games from PM discussions and I have no desire to play in anymore games where the focus is PM information. So get off your high horse and focus on the game, and I will continue to state that if PM discussions continue then I want to be lynched and if you don’t like it I don’t care.

EDIT: Nope, I was right the first time.

You unvoted Lift in post #138 and that was the last of your voting record. I can't find you voting on agent.

Votus Conputatio

agent 3 - Micro, RWarehall, Lift
Lift 2 - Pooka, agent
Microfish 2 - trent, yogsloth
SPF 1 - Joe
yogs 1 - FlockeShnee
ConsulCaesar 1 - joppo

Everyone else - 0
Not voting - SirPrimalform, Carradice, ConsulCaesar, GameRager

14 players remaining - it takes 8 to lynch.

When you see a vote count, please check that your name is against the right person.

I get your annoyance. I would rather if people stopped looking at PMs with a magnifying glass, squinting and turning their heads sideways to discover hidden meanings.

I just hope this won't be enough to make you leave. For what it's worth I believe all this nonsense won't last longer than D1.

I can see what you meant now(I assumed you didn't like PM talk as it was boring/etc), and am sorry for the partial misunderstanding & if I came across as patronizing.

I am focusing on the game...I was just pointing out(in one post) a pattern you seemed to exhibit in playing this game and the SH one that bothered me, is all...i.e. I slightly worry about this pattern of "I don't like X being done in games, and if I see X I will leave or want to lose" that you seem to exhibit.

(And again, if anyone did it i'd be concerned as well, as it could potentially break a game if enough kept doing it)

(All that said, I won't bring this up again after this post/my reply below to Joppo, out of respect for you and everyone else...and again, if I came off as rude/etc I apologize....that was not my intent, but rather the continued enjoyment of the game)
=========================================================================

Oh then my mistake...sorry about that(I have so much on my mind....maybe I should write down votes/unvotes in my notes as well).
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I got it as well...I also find some aspects of these games to be a bit boring or disagreeable.....though I would never want to leave over them & when I see someone(anyone) say they want to be lynched or quit over such it irks me a bit....even if that person had good reasons in their mind for doing so.

I hope he doesn't leave as well...he is usually a very good player and forum goer as well. :)

I don’t want to leave, this is going to be a great game. But, I will not play in a game where it’s broken from PM discussion. If someone believes someone else to be scummy then vote them, not base it off of how they are playing and not what they think their PM says.

That is good to hear....I had mainly worried what happened in the SH game might become a pattern and I didn't want to see that sort of thing spread(if that makes any sense) so I "panicked" a bit.

I'm sorry for my overreaction from earlier, btw, if it bothered you somehow.

But(genuinely asking) isn't SOME PM talk part of the game at some point/in some games?

I mean as long as the talk id short/done right and doesn't break the game then it's all good(for the game/etc) right?

Long post (1,100 words). An index is provided so that you skim/avoid at ease.


Contents:

1. Why claiming Huffleclaw is not that great. (@GR)
2. Tables (@Micro).
3. PMs: just say no.
4. Fisherman's Friend.
5. All the king's men.
6. Last moment updates.

===============================================

1. Why claiming Huffleclaw is not that great.

Meaning: Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw.

This is addressing a question from @GR, who asked what was the problem with Ravenclaw/Hufflepuff. As seen from here, Dumbledore said that: 1) It is Slytherin vs the other houses COMBINED (in a single team).

"But in reality we know that after all only Gryffindor really matters". What to make of this? Well, we know for sure that there are Gryffindor. Most (with few exceptions) of the prominent 'good' named characters in 'the books' (including the three kids of the 'golden trio') are Gryffindor. The most natural way of understanding this paragraph is considering that either all characters are Gryffindor or that the other two Houses have at most a token presence.

=> This is what the text says. The Slyth have not read your PM. Do not exhibit information from your PM to make the text less ambigous. Let the Slyth twist and sweat and keep wondering.

Now, according to this text, and knowledge of Hogwarts and 'the books', how to use this: Since Gryffindor is to be expected for sure, it is safe to guess that most participants are Gryffindor. Then, if you are a Slyth, what do you claim?

–Gryffindor, of course.
–No, you don't, little brat. Pay attention:

Imagine the setting is something along these lines: SSSN GGGG GGGG H R. It can be different. Anyway: they are all Votus-ing you and you offer your true name. Now, you have to say a Gryffindor name. What's the problem? that a prominent name in 'the books' is expected. You say Potter. But then, what happens? Yes, the real Potter notices and calls your bull. But if you say 'Potter' and nobody counter-claims, that is really something. People nods, pats you on the back, they even untie the rope from your neck, someone offers you a biscuit, that kind of thing.

So a Gryffindor name, (the most prominent in 'the books', the better), holds poise. Since it is expected to be countered easily.

On the other hand, if you claim a Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw name, then, AS PER DUMBLEDORE'S SPEECH, NOT PMs, it is possible that only one such name is 'taken', or maybe none. So, yes, a such claim holds less poise.

NOT that anyone claiming Hufflpuff has to be inmediately Votus-ed, but also keep in mind that it simply adds little to the credibility (meaning the credibility will have to emanate form other sources).

==============================================

2. Tables (@Micro).

Glad to hear that you enjoyed those table-shaped musings. There were two, you know. One was about Agent's and yogsloth's opening, in reply to @SPF, and also as an exercise.

The second was about sharing impressions so far. Others had made lists, but it seemed a good idea to make a complete ordered list. No probabilities were assigned at that time. Just an ordered list from higher to lesser suspicion. @GR falled right in the middle. BTW, some people has gone up and some down (or left).

Keeping everything relevant in text shape seemed easier to read for people on the go and everyone with a poor connection, but it is not a bad idea to add a pretty screen capture of a spreadsheet. Now, if you publish something in the same vein, it might be better to add a text-only version, just in case.

===============================================

3. PMs: just say no.

The information in PMs is a precious resource. It might be the last resort of an innocent headed for the gallows, or a way to corner a threat in the later stages of the game (and maybe the veterans know of further uses). Slyths should be left in the dark as much as possible. If they claim falsely, let us do it in the most catastrophically way possible. Let them show their tartan.

Looking at: too many.

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4. Fisherman's Friend.

People sending posts that can only be read as attempts to fish. Really? People, do not engage in those discussions. If someone says anything utterly wrong or obnoxious, you give them nothing. Do not even correct them... (except for coursteously asking them to kindly SHUT UP).

You do not want to be the fisherman's friend. Let fisherman's friend be just candy. Good candy, strong candy. You can be something else.

Looking at: @Caesar, @Micro.

===============================================

5. All the king's men.

So many things wrong with this post. Let us comment while trying to keep to the advice above, though.

1st. Making a partial quote that changes the meaning of the statement. Bad. Then, after joppo points the man how he is wrong in #240, Caesar acknowledges the existence of the completing sentence (that he had omitted), with a theory of his own, in #253, dealing, oh yes, with an entertaining theory on, what else, PR distribution among Town players. O yes, kids, now go and refute him, holding your PM ticket high inyour fingers–NO, YOU DON'T. We let them guess.

2nd. It is hard to read that post as anything other than fishing. Slyth or hostile neutral, or just some obnoxious play as town. So lying was a liabilty? So what to make of this? This approach is just terrible for town and hopefully no one keeps taking the bait for such posts.

3rd. Prior lurking until heavily pressured. Repeated times. Then, this. Plus, he claimed in the signature thread that he had experience.


All this, regrettably, makes of @Caesar a top tier suspect now.


===============================================

6. Last moment updates.

People smelling more fishy: @Caesar. Then @Micro because of fisheries rights.
People looking more legit: @Trent.

yogs, he can be either be an asset, or become the doom of Town. He tries too hard, and at the very beginning overreacted. On the other hand, RWarehall's slips seem legit. He cares less for looking townie, too. Both have shown to be eloquent. It might be town vs town, it might be not townish RWarehall vs something else. Or this might be all wrong, of course.

Feedback is welcome, so as to enlighten this Uniwizard first-timer and enliven the discussion.

That will be all for now.

^ should read "townish RWarehall vs something else".

Also, just for fun, you can read:

5. All the consul's men. ;-)

========

@Trent is right in that discussing PMs is not only damaging for Town, but also pretty boring...

I love the table of contents thing...very nice of you to do. :)


What if scum picked a less well known gryffindor name or the one with that name didn't want to counter it for some reason(like say they were against giving out PM info)?

In such a case it'd be very easy for a scum to claim a gryffindor name, OR EVEN just giving a house name and leaving it at that.

Agreed 100%

Who and why, if I may ask?

I agree, but I also like playing for fun more than winning(but only slightly more), and think playing it too safe sometimes makes for a more boring game(less risk...which some likely see as a good thing, including me sometimes I guess).

Tbh Micro comes off a bit less scummy to me due to (supposedly) only wanting to know IF one's name matched their house.....not any specific info from one's PM(such as name/role/etc)...of course the second thing Micro asked and then said they weren't asking(when I asked them about it) did give me a bit of pause.
--------------------------------------------------

HP reference? Or something else? o.0

Not so sure, if you're town anymore. Look further down and state your mind please.

I expect replies like that from people with something to hide. What are you hiding? Or more importantly: What do you want to _stay_ hidden? Yogsloth, I noticed a weird thing with you. And didn't think much of it. Then it happend again. And I thought: Odd. And it happened a third time. So as the first thing today, I took the time to take a closer look. I come to that at the end of this post.

I read those posts. From how I understand it, SPF stated he would take it as a joke (that it -most likely at this point- was intended to be) for now and review it later, if more substance presented itself. Which is reasonable.

Want to know what I think is the real reason you voted him? I will come to it right after this bit:

Heartwarming. Now lets get to the real question: Did you get told who to vote?


I would really like for yogsloth and trentonlf to explain this very weird series of events. It didn't happen just once, not just twice. It happen three times. Conincidence? Three times?

I mean this:
1
(after having a back and forth about a messed up quote from SPF)
yogsloth, post 41: OK, so you're quoting Joe to comment on Carr being ballsy or funny ... null, whatever
= "officially ending the conversation"
SPF, post 43: I was just agreeing with/adding to what Joe said, however because I cocked the quote up it wasn't particularly clear.
(as a reply to Carradice's "joke vote" on yogsloth)
yogsloth, post 54: (Tied me lead wagon.) I see I see I see. (= SPF, I figured it out/Understood. = trentonl)
trentonlf, post 56: Unvote yogsloth

2
SPF, post 78: takes back his vote on agentcarr in "gibberish/latin?"
yogsloth, post 79: Nope, Agent is town. ... Going back and forth on Carradice ... I'll reserve judgment here. Good good good.
SPF, post 80: Takes back his vote on agentcarr in english.
trentonlf, post 83: Vote Carradice

3
SPF, post 106: I'm willing to give agent a pass for that for now, but obviously it might count against him down the line.
yogsloth, post 107: Townies that lie like the plague (and there are many on Mafia Universe) doom the town to defeat. I hate it so much... so much... flames... flames, from the side of my face...
Wokka wokka wokka!
trentonlf, post 108: Unvote carradice
Vote SirPrimalform

-----------
Well, to be honest, no explanation is gonna make me unsee this. My vote stays where it is and I know who I'll vote next if I survive that long.

My thoughts:
Option 1
yogsloth and trentonlf are on a different team, either scum or third party. Personally, I'm leaning more towards third party. It would explain why he's so unhappy about talking about "setup/mechanics".
Option 2
yogsloth and trentonlf and SPF on on the same team: Either scum or third party. Not sure about this right now. SPF could be an "innocent target" - or just scum that happend to be targeted if y and t are third party.
Option 3
There is a scum connection plus (tragic?) lover connection going on there between yogsloth, trentonlf and SirPrimalform.

Question is: Was "I see I see I see" directed at SPF (= SPF, I figured it out/Understood)I and trentonlf (= Pay attention/Unvote me)? Only at SPF and trentonlf mistook it as a message for him? Or only at trentonlf and SPF just got mixed up in this, maybe even as a possible -future- target more or less from the start?)

Special note:
yogsloth opinion about early wagons clearing people as town. (post 107: I think Lift is probably town from a few other things though, including having an early wagon run on him that wasn't really put together from much substance and just... vibey wibey kinda stuff, but ya know, whatevs, it's not my strongest read ever.)

I legitimately have no idea what you're asking me.

Is there an actual question buried in there somewhere?