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This is my favourite topic
Posted September 28, 2015
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hedwards: Does anybody know when exactly this forum turned to shit?
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Elenarie: Too many small things to mention, but overall, GOG's crappy PR movement did most of the work, I'd say.
I agree, the rest just followed.
Posted September 28, 2015
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Shadowstalker16: Why are all your arguments designed to place liability on the society at large for suicides? Is it really that difficult to understand that each suicide is different and will have a mix of socio-political, economic, emotional and many other issues? I mean, last time I checked, people don't commit suicide over one thing they're unhappy with. Please try t remember that suicide however it happens is perpetrated by the individual and holding the society fully responsible is neither logical nor helpful and holding the person as some brave matyr will probably incite more people to do so. What should be done is to convince people that suicide is not an option.
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rampancy: In the case of teenagers/youths who are LGTBQ (or at the very least are beginning to grasp that their gender idenity does not fall into the traditional cis-binary), and have encountered nothing but extremely fierce opposition from their communities, friends and families, who then is to blame if they end up committing suicide? What about victims of rape or sexual abuse who have endured attacks and a refusal of support from their communities and families, from their community supporting their rapist, to "slut-shaming", to outright denials of their experiences? I don't want to put words into your mouth, so I won't assume that you're engaging in victim blaming, but if we have societies or communities that are openly and viciously hostile to LGTBQ (or rape victims, etc.), and if we have people who turn to suicide as their only way out, then there is clearly something very, very wrong with those communities. And it suggests that yes, there still is a significant problem with society at large when it comes to LGTBQ youth.
So that somehow makes it OK to continue glorify suicide and those 80% who would not suicide now will?
http://www.suicide.org/media-guidelines-for-suicide.html

And rape victims is not the same with LGBT.
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Gnostic: As soon as I find out what being a cyborg means I come out to my mom. She reacted extremely negatively, telling me that it was a phase, that I would never truly be a robot, that God doesn’t make mistakes, that I am wrong
"You'll never be a real robot" or "What're you going to do, build little robots with a spanner?" or "God's going to send you straight to hell"
I wanted to see a mad scientist but they wouldn't let me, they thought it would corrupt my mind.

Will my parents love me less because I think I am a robot? No
Will my parents do everything in their power to correct my thinking? Yes

So for these 2 years I will be a human before trying to contacting the All Spark.
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Klumpen0815: I love this movie:
I'm a Cyborg, But That's OK

Go on then, sorry for the interruption.
I am glad if it bring a smile to your lips
Post edited September 28, 2015 by Gnostic
Posted September 28, 2015
low rated
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Gnostic: And rape victims is not the same with LGBT.
Actually, I would argue that, though they aren't the same, the issues those groups of people aren't completely different. For one thing, both can have a hard time being believed; having your rape not acknowledged (when the topic comes up, of course) is not that different than having your gender dysphoria not acknowledged. For another, the groups are not completely disjoint; in fact, rape does, indeed, occur in same sex relationships. Also, there exists "corrective rape", which can involve, for example, a straight man raping a lesbian to "turn her straight" (which of course does not work). In fact, I would argue that you can't completely separate the issues regarding minorities.

Also, I should remind you that some parents are abusive and have much the same issues. (Note that Leelah had abusive parents and was transgender.)

P. S. With this post, the number of replies to this topic no longer fits in an 8-bit integer.
Posted September 28, 2015
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micktiegs_8: I'm not seeing much difference, besides the occasionally new posts about support abuse, GOG abuse etc. These only became more prevalent when Galaxy was starting out.

I'm pretty sure there was a thread about picking on agnostics and atheists a year or so ago. Is that not sub standard behaviour?

The only subforums I could suggest at the moment are ones for; giveaways, and mod suggestions for GOG.com. Oh and one for the 'what did just update' thread.
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hedwards: There are always a ton of threads in any forum that aren't of particular interest to everybody. I think that's a given.

what concerns me isn't that the higher minded threads are much less common than they used to be and the substance is much lower so much as the amount of group think and just general poor netiquette that I'm seeing.

The outright abuse of rep is a growing problem. I don't personally care about it, but the thing that it represents is a much bigger problem. You get idiots being repped up for some pretty asinine views and people being downrepped for no reason that I can identify. Removing rep would take away the obvious problem, but it's a sign of decay.

In the past, I don't recall seeing as much mis-repping going on. Now, that could definitely be perceptual, I didn't notice much repping going on at all in the past. But, who knows. The complete lack of moderation and consequences for forum goers that stop over the line has gotten out of hand.

Even posting private PM messages doesn't get a baning or anything more than a stern talking to.
Well, we're living in a decaying ($id Meier's) Civilization™ so that's gonna be reflected atcha werever ya go, so you know ...

As to repping I'll quote or heavily plagiarize someone else's comment on that

Broken down into the few issues that arose in the course of this thread:
1. It's... INCONSISTENT D: !
You know what ? I'm not autistic. I'm willing to accept that the world is inconsistent. That's one of the most basic facts of life, to be honest.
Furthemore - as my ontology lecturer once said: "Anyone who thinks their views are 100% coherent is incredibly naive". I'm willing to live with this too, as long as things appear quite reasonable on the surface.
2. Down with down-voting !
Yeah, that's a great idea. After all - if people can no longer downvote others, everyone will love everyone else and this place will blossom into universal positivity ^^ !
Well, no. Guess what, genius, people will most likely think the same things but will merely be unable to express them in the gentlest slap-on-the-wrist way we have at out disposal. This is how I imagine a forum full of up-votes only. Magnificent, isn't it ?
3. Let's imagine...
OK, let's say that the forum does away the minus sign. All it takes is a little aggrement among us dissenters to treat the + button as the - button and pretend the + no longer exists (never mind the logistics, just follow the thought experiment along. The conclusions don't necessitate the premises). Soon enough green-marked posts would be the ones stigmatized and people would quickly grow to understand this practice and interpret the forum accordingly.
4. The dumbest thing about the entire suggestion...
...is that it perceives the symptoms as the sickness. People don't downvote others because there is a button there. They do so because THEY SEE IT AS JUST.
Can the community be mistaken and misjudge the rating a post should receive ? Duh. Does non-zero fallibility mean we should get rid of the system entirely ?
Hilariously enough - this forum rarely does treat people unfairly. Most here err on the side of caution.
5. Who gets downvotes
This is somewhat beside the point but I'm going to mention this anyway: how can we tell whether something we are about to post is OK ? Guess what - it's not an algorithm we follow. It's not a set of posted rules. If there's one thing I remember from my ethics lectures, it's that there can never be a finite set of rules an individual is meant to follow (and even if there is, it far exceeds the ability to remember, comprehend, calculate in real-time, etc); any ethically mature individual should know that and still be able to mostly make the right calls when faced with real-life problems.
In other words - use COMMON SENSE. People who are able to figure out the appropriate things to say in RL conversations should not lose this talent once online.
What makes the fact, that a post should be down-voted, a dead-giveaway ? As rule of thumb - the poster sounding like a blowhard or an idiot to use less than profound terms. Both cannot be reasoned with yet should not be simply tolerated (with possible exceptions - see above).
In the mean time before this our decaying ($id Meier's) Civilization™ completely collapses why not up your classiness a tad by enjoying some tastie morsels over at the Gamergate News Forum!
Posted September 28, 2015

You know what ? I'm not autistic. I'm willing to accept that the world is inconsistent. That's one of the most basic facts of life, to be honest.
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noncompliantgame:
This brings me to something I wanted to say for a long time:
I'm part of two "problematic" minorities at the same time (victim-shamed and unbelieved child abuse victim with Asperger's Syndrome) and the "group" that has hurt me the most, bullies me at many occasions and does offend me most of the time are the people commonly defined as Social Justice Bullies by now and those are actually one of the diverse reasons why this community has become so uncomfortable at times since they are poisoning every environment with their fighting attitude and smattering. The situation doesn't improve if their critics implement the same mechanisms in their discussion behaviour.
Please use the #GG-thread for those things or even better, read what is written there already, for there is not much more to add and no need to repeat it over and over imho.
Post edited September 28, 2015 by Klumpen0815
Posted September 28, 2015
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dtgreene: Also, I should remind you that some parents are abusive and have much the same issues. (Note that Leelah had abusive parents and was transgender.)
Then tell me this, know-it-all, how were Leelah's grades? She is constantly complaining about not getting to see her friends, and claims its because she was trans, but is that the real reason? Is that the only reason?

You are basing everything you know on the Internet rantings of a disturbed teenager and inexplicably taking everything said as absolute fact. Add to that, right or wrong her parents seemed honest in trying to help her. You may disapprove of their methods. You call it abuse, but Leelah was not your child. You did not raise her for 17 years. So how can you claim its such a "fact" that they were abusive?

Furthermore, what's your solution? You seem to complain a lot. How do we fix it? Uni-sex toilets? Does that solve all the problems? Or do we kick everyone out of school that any LGBTQ claims "harassed" them without any proof. Because uneducated "bigots" would make the world such a better place...I hear a lot of complaints, but I don't hear any real answers...

Now, I tried to look up trans deaths and here's what I found...
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LGBT-related_suicides
Mike Penner 52 (Nov 27, 2009)
Leelah Alcorn 17 (Dec 28, 2014)
Eylül Cansın 24 (Jan 5, 2015)
Melonie Rose 19 (Feb 11, 2015)
Zander Mahaffey 15 (Feb 15, 2015)
Ash Haffner 16 (Feb 26, 2015)
Blake Brockington 18 (March 23, 2015)
Taylor Alesana 16 (April 2, 2015)
Cameron Langrell 15 (May 1, 2015)
Kyler Prescott 14 (May 18, 2015)

It sure looks to me that teenage trans deaths went on a big upturn after that suicide note was publicly released on the Internet. But some here want you to believe there was nothing wrong publicizing Leelah's suicide...

I don't see any other teens deaths listed before Leelah, but I see a bunch listed after...
Posted September 28, 2015
low rated
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dtgreene: Also, I should remind you that some parents are abusive and have much the same issues. (Note that Leelah had abusive parents and was transgender.)
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RWarehall: Then tell me this, know-it-all, how were Leelah's grades? She is constantly complaining about not getting to see her friends, and claims its because she was trans, but is that the real reason? Is that the only reason?

You are basing everything you know on the Internet rantings of a disturbed teenager and inexplicably taking everything said as absolute fact. Add to that, right or wrong her parents seemed honest in trying to help her. You may disapprove of their methods. You call it abuse, but Leelah was not your child. You did not raise her for 17 years. So how can you claim its such a "fact" that they were abusive?

Furthermore, what's your solution? You seem to complain a lot. How do we fix it? Uni-sex toilets? Does that solve all the problems? Or do we kick everyone out of school that any LGBTQ claims "harassed" them without any proof. Because uneducated "bigots" would make the world such a better place...I hear a lot of complaints, but I don't hear any real answers...

Now, I tried to look up trans deaths and here's what I found...
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_LGBT-related_suicides
Mike Penner 52 (Nov 27, 2009)
Leelah Alcorn 17 (Dec 28, 2014)
Eylül Cansın 24 (Jan 5, 2015)
Melonie Rose 19 (Feb 11, 2015)
Zander Mahaffey 15 (Feb 15, 2015)
Ash Haffner 16 (Feb 26, 2015)
Blake Brockington 18 (March 23, 2015)
Taylor Alesana 16 (April 2, 2015)
Cameron Langrell 15 (May 1, 2015)
Kyler Prescott 14 (May 18, 2015)

It sure looks to me that teenage trans deaths went on a big upturn after that suicide note was publicly released on the Internet. But some here want you to believe there was nothing wrong publicizing Leelah's suicide...

I don't see any other teens deaths listed before Leelah, but I see a bunch listed after...
Really, isolating someone is abuse, period. There is no excuse for that.

The list of suicides you posted is not complete. The reason so many post-Leelah suicides are on the list is that the media payed more attention to them; Leelah's suicide was definitely not the only one.

Also, I never made any comment on whether publicizing the suicide note was a good idea or not, though it is clearly what she wanted.

My solution to the problem consists of education (not just of the kids!) and laws to make the worst abuses illegal and to provide LGBT people the same protections other minorities get.
Posted September 28, 2015
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Gnostic: So that somehow makes it OK to continue glorify suicide and those 80% who would not suicide now will?
http://www.suicide.org/media-guidelines-for-suicide.html
What on earth are you talking about? I was replying to the above comment that appeared to say that we shouldn't place any blame on society with regards to suicide -- my apologies if I've misrepresented that post, but that's how it came across to me. Now, I agree with Shadowstalker16 that a person's decision to commit suicide is absolutely an interaction between many factors including race, class, family, emotional state and mental health, but society arguably has a huge influence on all of the factors that they mentioned. To say that "...people don't commit suicide over one thing they're unhappy with" IMO unfairly simplifies the struggle that people like LGTBQ youth have, especially when they first come out.

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Gnostic: And rape victims is not the same with LGBT.
Of course they're not the same, and obviously the situations and contexts leading up to a decision to commit suicide can vary from person to person. But they can be subjected to the same problems (e.g. hostility to their experiences, hostility to themselves, lack of support from family or their community) if they live in communities with toxic characteristics.
Posted September 28, 2015
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dtgreene: Really, isolating someone is abuse, period. There is no excuse for that.

The list of suicides you posted is not complete. The reason so many post-Leelah suicides are on the list is that the media payed more attention to them; Leelah's suicide was definitely not the only one.

Also, I never made any comment on whether publicizing the suicide note was a good idea or not, though it is clearly what she wanted.

My solution to the problem consists of education (not just of the kids!) and laws to make the worst abuses illegal and to provide LGBT people the same protections other minorities get.
It may not be complete but it sure shows a trend...and tell me one suicide note left where someone didn't want it read? Just because someone wants it out there, sometimes that is a very bad idea. Or are you trying to claim that trans teens have been dying over once a month and no one has noticed and no one bothered to backtrack and get their names for the list? I'm inclined to believe that there are 7 names on that list after Leelah, who may not have followed through if it were not the publication of her suicide note.

So, education, can you define what you mean by that, how it works? For how long has it been that people have been told not to judge someone else by the color of their skin? Is that working? And if there is an out trans teen at the school, might this education put more of a spotlight and him or her?

And making what you call the "worst abuses" illegal. I take it you've already decided that Leelah's parents are on that list without hearing their side of the story, right? And by same protections other minorities get, enlighten me on what protections Leelah didn't get that other minorities do?

So what's your practical plan? Any teen commits suicide, lock their parents up because its a clear sign of abuse? Anyone who calls them a name, same? The strange thing in Leelah's case, I don't hear many complaints about others in school, just that she seemed to hate her parents...is that enough? If a teenager hates their parents, the parents are automatically guilty?

Education is easy to say, how do you accomplish it? New wave minority rights, what rights are you talking about that only certain minorities get? Do the so-called majority not also get these rights?
Posted September 28, 2015
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Gnostic: And rape victims is not the same with LGBT.
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dtgreene: Actually, I would argue that, though they aren't the same, the issues those groups of people aren't completely different. For one thing, both can have a hard time being believed; having your rape not acknowledged (when the topic comes up, of course) is not that different than having your gender dysphoria not acknowledged. For another, the groups are not completely disjoint; in fact, rape does, indeed, occur in same sex relationships. Also, there exists "corrective rape", which can involve, for example, a straight man raping a lesbian to "turn her straight" (which of course does not work). In fact, I would argue that you can't completely separate the issues regarding minorities.
It is not the same, because rape is easily distinguish. It is black and white. If you rape you go jail. The only grey area is Are you really raped? Like if you say yes, then performing the act halfway you say no, like what some women do but actually want to continue.......

For LGBT, First of all, stupid extremist corrective action like raping a Lesbian is wrong. Dumb and extremist action are everywhere, but that would not be stereotype that everyone does that.

However there are gays who regretted their sexual orientation and become ex-gay. Are you ignoring this group of people?

It's not like every gay would not regret their sexual orientation. yes, there are gays who would stick to their orientation, there is also some of they who would regret it.

So if a gay regrets it...... we should punish him and say he cannot go back?

How can be be sure the kid will keep to his sexual orientation and does not regret it? If he / she is above 18 years and can take responsibility for himself, then we should respect his / her sexual orientation, as long as it does not interfere with the rights of other people.

If He / she is not a adult yet......

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dtgreene: Also, I should remind you that some parents are abusive and have much the same issues. (Note that Leelah had abusive parents and was transgender.)

P. S. With this post, the number of replies to this topic no longer fits in an 8-bit integer.
For Leelah parents, I already reply here
Posted September 28, 2015
Not to start a flame war or marginalize your guys serious conversation your having but, this thread really sucks. Congratz hedwards you sucked that one up big time. If this is what the older members think is a good thread to post, please take it and go.

Quote incoming.
Post edited September 28, 2015 by bad_fur_day1
Posted September 28, 2015
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hedwards: There are always a ton of threads in any forum that aren't of particular interest to everybody. I think that's a given.

what concerns me isn't that the higher minded threads are much less common than they used to be and the substance is much lower so much as the amount of group think and just general poor netiquette that I'm seeing.

The outright abuse of rep is a growing problem. I don't personally care about it, but the thing that it represents is a much bigger problem. You get idiots being repped up for some pretty asinine views and people being downrepped for no reason that I can identify. Removing rep would take away the obvious problem, but it's a sign of decay.

In the past, I don't recall seeing as much mis-repping going on. Now, that could definitely be perceptual, I didn't notice much repping going on at all in the past. But, who knows. The complete lack of moderation and consequences for forum goers that stop over the line has gotten out of hand.

Even posting private PM messages doesn't get a baning or anything more than a stern talking to.
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noncompliantgame: Well, we're living in a decaying ($id Meier's) Civilization™ so that's gonna be reflected atcha werever ya go, so you know ...

As to repping I'll quote or heavily plagiarize someone else's comment on that

Broken down into the few issues that arose in the course of this thread:
1. It's... INCONSISTENT D: !
You know what ? I'm not autistic. I'm willing to accept that the world is inconsistent. That's one of the most basic facts of life, to be honest.
Furthemore - as my ontology lecturer once said: "Anyone who thinks their views are 100% coherent is incredibly naive". I'm willing to live with this too, as long as things appear quite reasonable on the surface.
2. Down with down-voting !
Yeah, that's a great idea. After all - if people can no longer downvote others, everyone will love everyone else and this place will blossom into universal positivity ^^ !
Well, no. Guess what, genius, people will most likely think the same things but will merely be unable to express them in the gentlest slap-on-the-wrist way we have at out disposal. This is how I imagine a forum full of up-votes only. Magnificent, isn't it ?
3. Let's imagine...
OK, let's say that the forum does away the minus sign. All it takes is a little aggrement among us dissenters to treat the + button as the - button and pretend the + no longer exists (never mind the logistics, just follow the thought experiment along. The conclusions don't necessitate the premises). Soon enough green-marked posts would be the ones stigmatized and people would quickly grow to understand this practice and interpret the forum accordingly.
4. The dumbest thing about the entire suggestion...
...is that it perceives the symptoms as the sickness. People don't downvote others because there is a button there. They do so because THEY SEE IT AS JUST.
Can the community be mistaken and misjudge the rating a post should receive ? Duh. Does non-zero fallibility mean we should get rid of the system entirely ?
Hilariously enough - this forum rarely does treat people unfairly. Most here err on the side of caution.
5. Who gets downvotes
This is somewhat beside the point but I'm going to mention this anyway: how can we tell whether something we are about to post is OK ? Guess what - it's not an algorithm we follow. It's not a set of posted rules. If there's one thing I remember from my ethics lectures, it's that there can never be a finite set of rules an individual is meant to follow (and even if there is, it far exceeds the ability to remember, comprehend, calculate in real-time, etc); any ethically mature individual should know that and still be able to mostly make the right calls when faced with real-life problems.
In other words - use COMMON SENSE. People who are able to figure out the appropriate things to say in RL conversations should not lose this talent once online.
What makes the fact, that a post should be down-voted, a dead-giveaway ? As rule of thumb - the poster sounding like a blowhard or an idiot to use less than profound terms. Both cannot be reasoned with yet should not be simply tolerated (with possible exceptions - see above).
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noncompliantgame: In the mean time before this our decaying ($id Meier's) Civilization™ completely collapses why not up your classiness a tad by enjoying some tastie morsels over at the Gamergate News Forum!
Quit spamming for the gamergate forum its already on the hot tpocs list what do want!!!!!!!!!
Posted September 28, 2015
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Gnostic: So that somehow makes it OK to continue glorify suicide and those 80% who would not suicide now will?
http://www.suicide.org/media-guidelines-for-suicide.html
avatar
rampancy: What on earth are you talking about? I was replying to the above comment that appeared to say that we shouldn't place any blame on society with regards to suicide -- my apologies if I've misrepresented that post, but that's how it came across to me. Now, I agree with Shadowstalker16 that a person's decision to commit suicide is absolutely an interaction between many factors including race, class, family, emotional state and mental health, but society arguably has a huge influence on all of the factors that they mentioned. To say that "...people don't commit suicide over one thing they're unhappy with" IMO unfairly simplifies the struggle that people like LGTBQ youth have, especially when they first come out.

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Gnostic: And rape victims is not the same with LGBT.
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rampancy: Of course they're not the same, and obviously the situations and contexts leading up to a decision to commit suicide can vary from person to person. But they can be subjected to the same problems (e.g. hostility to their experiences, hostility to themselves, lack of support from family or their community) if they live in communities with toxic characteristics.
I am sorry, I misinterpret your post.
Posted September 28, 2015
low rated
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RWarehall: Or are you trying to claim that trans teens have been dying over once a month
/thread
Posted September 28, 2015
low rated
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Gnostic: However there are gays who regretted their sexual orientation and become ex-gay. Are you ignoring this group of people?

It's not like every gay would not regret their sexual orientation. yes, there are gays who would stick to their orientation, there is also some of they who would regret it.

So if a gay regrets it...... we should punish him and say he cannot go back?

How can be be sure the kid will keep to his sexual orientation and does not regret it? If he / she is above 18 years and can take responsibility for himself, then we should respect his / her sexual orientation, as long as it does not interfere with the rights of other people.

If He / she is not a adult yet......
First of all, age should not be a consideration when determining whether to respect someone's identity; this applies to both sexual orientation and gender identity (as well as other aspects like religion).

Second, ex-gay *does not work*. See
http://www.beyondexgay.com/survey/results/q1.html

Also, if you're gay, getting into a straight relationship is not going to end well. For example, consider Tchaikovsky, who separated from his wife only six months after the marriage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonina_Miliukova
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This is my favourite topic
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General discussionClassy community(324 posts)(324 posts)
(324 posts)