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timppu: I see that as reason many people would start using bitcoins (instead of cash) as it is similarly untrackable.
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Starmaker: Bitcoin is trackable. It's the most trackable thing ever. All transactions go into a public ledger for everyone to see.
Bitcoin's one [s]advantage[/s] selling point was that it couldn't be issued at-will
So each bitcoin is equal to half an ounce of gold. Considering it's a crypto currency, i recall there was something about getting bitcoins for solving the complex mathematical problems, however as the reward was lowering down the bitcoin miners have gone down since it's less profitable now.

Still the transparency would ensure it can't get stolen easily, shaved off or other. But at the same time i recall that there was supposedly some lawsuit to open up who had what bitcoins so the government could use it to tax you accordingly, to get the slice of that currency.

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timppu: Would you buy GOG games for 0.01 bitcoints, or something like that?
Because that would be the exchange rate. I recall seeing a video of an experiment where they were using bitcoin to purchase burritoes or something from some shop, and it was 0.014 bitcoins or something. You'd just have a running total, not working with whole coins.
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Starmaker: Bitcoin is trackable. It's the most trackable thing ever. All transactions go into a public ledger for everyone to see.
I stand corrected then, By being trackable, do you mean that everyone using bitcoin is identifiable (by anyone)? So if I wanted to know how much (if any) bitcoins my neighbour has in his bitcoin account (or has received to it recently, or given to someone), I can easily see that, by just knowing his (real) name? His identifiable name is in some kind of Bitcoin database (with all the transaction information etc.) for anyone to see?

If, on the other hand, you meant that the Bitcoin system keeps a track that hotb0i69@bitcoin.com has given 2 bitcoins to evilhitler666@bitcoin.com... I don't consider that trackable from the state point of view, as e.g. I have absolutely no idea who those two bitcoin users are.

I'm thinking of how e.g. authorities fight money laundering and such. For instance, if you receive 5000 euros in cash from someone and want to go to put it into your bank account, at least down here you have to explain (and prove?) in detail to the bank how you get hold of the money, before they allow you to put it into the account. I guess they need to report it to the authorities in case it is not clear.

How is it with bitcoins? If I receive 100 bitcoins from some other individual, will the (Finnish) authorities be alerted, and will I be questioned why and how I got the money?

I'm asking simple questions as I know next to nothing about how bitcoin actually works. I still use old world money.
Post edited February 20, 2017 by timppu
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timppu: If, on the other hand, you meant that the Bitcoin system keeps a track that hotb0i69@bitcoin.com has given 2 bitcoins to evilhitler666@bitcoin.com... I don't consider that trackable from the state point of view, as e.g. I have absolutely no idea who those two bitcoin users are.
You have no idea. Powerful and malicious actors will*. Machine learning isn't magic but it's really fucking powerful. If you use a bitcoin wallet to buy a hot dog at the hot dog stand, the hot dog seller knows whose wallet is this, because he's giving you a hot dog on the basis of this particular transaction. If people want to track you, they can bribe or threaten the hot dog seller, or grab some street surveillance footage. Your account balance is not a thing; it's literally the (public) history of your transactions. If you regularly use bitcoins in daily life, thousands of transactions will be available to track you, build your profile, and identify you.

You can keep multiple wallets for different purposes, but how will you be filling them for regular use? Most work is done under people's regular public identities. Either you're being paid by someone who knows who you are, or you're buying coins with regular payment methods, and then whoever you're buying from also knows who you are. If you transfer money between your wallets, it lights up on a network graph like whoa.

You can use an anonymization "shuffling" service, but then the service functions like a bank and has access to your (and many other people's -- the more people the better to ensure high entropy) money -- no guarantee they don't say "yolo" at some point and run off with everyone's coins; or if they're accountable, they're accountable to a "force wielder" such as a government and will rat you out.

* Seriously, it's a basic principle that there's no freedom (in the nice and fluffy sense) without a democratically elected government. While most world governments are ass (some more than others), if people hate theirs (probably rightfully), going "lolololol what if no rules" is counterproductive, because the people to most benefit from the lolololol no rules will be the individuals with the most resources. As in, those who are already in power.
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kbnrylaec: In the Real World™, Bitcoin have no difference with any other money.
Modern currency have not much actual meaning.
Except if I call up my tax office and say, "I'm going to pay you in bitcoin", they'll laugh at me before demanding that I actually pay with real money.

Same with the water bill and my landlord sure won't accept it either.

In fact, I would be suspicious of any landowner who does.
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Darvond: Except if I call up my tax office and say, "I'm going to pay you in bitcoin", they'll laugh at me before demanding that I actually pay with real money.

Same with the water bill and my landlord sure won't accept it either.

In fact, I would be suspicious of any landowner who does.
I would see that as yet another currency. Your landlord won't probably accept a payment in Vietnamese dongs either, but I presume you could exchange dongs to dollars somewhere yourself (for the required amount), same as with bitcoins (I presume).

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Starmaker: ...
At this point I am not for or against things like bitcoin (mostly for safety purposes, I'm staying out of it though for now).

On the other hand I don't like it if it made e.g. money laundering, tax evasion and such easier (ie. the life of the criminals would be easier)... but at the same time I like the idea that The State can't track everything you do (even with your money). The same reason I don't like the idea that all cars would be required by law to have a GPS system for tracking the cars (yes yes my phone can be tracked, but there is no law telling I have to keep it with me, nor that it even has to be turned on).

I know, those two things are quite contradictory. I want my freedom, but no freedom for criminals. :)
Post edited February 20, 2017 by timppu
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timppu: On the other hand I don't like it if it made e.g. money laundering, tax evasion and such easier (ie. the life of the criminals would be easier)... but at the same time I like the idea that The State can't track everything you do (even with your money). The same reason I don't like the idea that all cars would be required by law to have a GPS system for tracking the cars (yes yes my phone can be tracked, but there is no law telling I have to keep it with me, nor that it even has to be turned on).
I also like the idea that the State can't track everything I do. Hell, I'm considering leaving my main hobby that I've spent my life savings and more to enter and built my offline identity around because as of this year they require me to have and use Telegram, and I only have an old tablet with sideloaded apps and no sim card or app store. They allow exceptions in, er, exceptional circumstances, but as one of the most prominent people in the hobby, I'd set a shitty example.

However, Bitcoin *can* be tracked, it's in fact super easy to track. Even if a government is so bad that it doesn't have capable experts working for it, it still has money to pay overseas security firms to do tracking for them. Anonymity is difficult to maintain for speech, it's much harder if you need to somehow identify yourself to receive goods/services you paid for. I want an anonymous payment system (preferably without ransomware and pedos, but I'm okay with them benefitting from a hypothetical system as long as people need illegal weed and mail-order abortion pills) but Bitcoin is not it. If I buy some coins via paypal and then spend them on weed, I'm going to get busted, probably by a poor techie who makes a living selling out people to the cops who can't remove read-only from a docx.
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rtcvb32: Errr... hmmm... Actually there might be someone with a code to give you BG for free, at least the original vs the EE version. Let me look if i happen to have a code attached to my EE version for you...

edit: Yep

If you want it, just ask and i'll PM it to you. Pretty sure it has never been touched.
Oh! I would be glad to have it. What about the differences with EE and Original version? EE has more story/npcs?

And... I will be your secret santa. Just wait to the end of this year...

(Funny thing If I google translate this from German (English words) to Spanish it says: "I want to be your invisible friend" SAVAGE!
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Darvond: I mean, hey. If you want to spend your monopoly money, then by all means go spend it somewhere else.

I don't think GOG is interested in currency with no actual meaning.
Tin foil hat TM, but I want to believe.
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timppu: About bitcoin, I always find it a bit odd that one bitcoin is something like 500 USD or something. Why is it so high? Would you buy GOG games for 0.01 bitcoints, or something like that?

To me it would appear that in many (western) countries, the authorities seem to be gently pushing people not to use cash money, but only use debit/credit cards, money transfers (through banks) etc. There are also limits how much cash money you can bring with you from country to country, etc.

I can understand why this is state's wet dream because then they could more easily track when and how people are trading. For instance for taxing purposes so that you can't pay someone with cash without paying taxes, or tracking if someone, who is getting social benefits from the state, is also getting money from other people (e,g, salary, or even money gifts). End to the grey market and hidden payments.

I see that as reason many people would start using bitcoins (instead of cash) as it is similarly untrackable.
It started like 5 BTC = 30 dollars, a "clan" friends (online friends) spend 5 BTC to buy a copy of BF3 a long time ago. The last time I checked it was on 600 USD per BTC.

And now by http://preev.com/ its freaking 1000 USD = 1 BTC!!!

I don't know how this currency gains so much value, but I have a lot of options for Steam to buy with it (even Steam has an option now) Ex.: As I said before webs like BR-STORE-I-DON'T-REMEMBER and other various stores from my country (resell key legit, with goverment taxes and so on) that accept this currency too.
Post edited February 20, 2017 by Dash95
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rtcvb32: Errr... hmmm... Actually there might be someone with a code to give you BG for free, at least the original vs the EE version. Let me look if i happen to have a code attached to my EE version for you...

edit: Yep

If you want it, just ask and i'll PM it to you. Pretty sure it has never been touched.
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Dash95: Oh! I would be glad to have it. What about the differences with EE and Original version? EE has more story/npcs?

And... I will be your secret santa. Just wait to the end of this year...

(Funny thing If I google translate this from German (English words) to Spanish it says: "I want to be your invisible
Well the Enhanced Edition is rebuilt for newer hardware, and has updated models/meshes/textures. However i don't know if it updated to use a different system, so it might still be using AD&D, or 3rd or what. Otherwise the story has probably the same amount, but the original had mods/patches i heard that take every plot hole and unfinished portion of the game and fleshes it out. So the original is probably slightly better. Also i heard there were performance issues with the EE version, but that was when it was coming out, if it's been fixed i'm not sure i haven't actually touched it yet.
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Dash95: Oh! I would be glad to have it. What about the differences with EE and Original version? EE has more story/npcs?

And... I will be your secret santa. Just wait to the end of this year...

(Funny thing If I google translate this from German (English words) to Spanish it says: "I want to be your invisible
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rtcvb32: Well the Enhanced Edition is rebuilt for newer hardware, and has updated models/meshes/textures. However i don't know if it updated to use a different system, so it might still be using AD&D, or 3rd or what. Otherwise the story has probably the same amount, but the original had mods/patches i heard that take every plot hole and unfinished portion of the game and fleshes it out. So the original is probably slightly better. Also i heard there were performance issues with the EE version, but that was when it was coming out, if it's been fixed i'm not sure i haven't actually touched it yet.
Thank you for the copy.
Iirc, its already in community wishlist, but, sadly - looks like cdprojekt not intrested in doing that yet