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Time4Tea: Also, are the modders being paid for that content? Because, if not, in what way is GOG 'supporting' those modders?
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SOURCE_OF_TRUTH: Modding means investing your free time without being rewarded for it. It always meant that. I modded 15 of my 33 years on this planet, I know what I am saying.

With the advent of Patreon, some modders actually managed to construct a business around their modding efforts, a business that is at best in a legal grey area and mostly ignored by the publishers for now, as long as it is not bad for business or competing with anything (like selling Skins). Note that most of the successful Patreon-mods are for rather old games (like Empire at War) or niche games like (semi-)realiistic military sims.

GoG does not need to compensate the developers of DeusEx NewVision or the Daggerfall Unity in any way, neither legally nor morally. If GoG would do that, they would hurt the modders, a lot by the way. Why? Because these modders would now profit from an intellectual property they do not own.

Honestly, I remember how happy I was when PC Gaming Mags reported on my mods back in the day (mostly Freespace 2 and Warcraft 3), linked to Download pages and similar things. We had one or two requests back in the day when magazine people asked if they could put our installer on their DVDs and we declined every time, because we would have gotten some ugly mail from a lawyer very very fast.

Nowadays, if a store like GoG would agree to distribute my mod with the blessing of the publisher, my brain would probably explode. The fact that Bethesda is okay with "officially" releasing mod-projects based on their games and thus raising awareness is great, it is a win-win-win situation:
- good for the modders, because their work gets more exposure!
- good for the players, because they are made aware of some cool new content for their favorite game, available in a very convenient format
- good for the company, because it strengthens the brand and might generate sales (e.g. for the sequel)

The general negativity in this thread is depressing and not at all warranted. Not everything on this store is absolutely perfect, sometimes things do not work out the way that they were planned (Ancestors Legacy, Quake Remastered, ...), sometimes patches are late (or way too late, in Homeworld: Deserts of Kharak's case), not everything is as DRM-free as one would hope but from reading through this thread, one gets the impression that GoG is a literal hell-in-the-internet, out to get you.

GoG is a wonderful store. It can improve of course but it is in a much better place than many alternatives and I will happily continue to support it.

The trolling in this thread, because what else are many of the messages in here, needs to stop. People are looking for things to hate and post about and I honestly fail to see how these people even have the time for that. Is there nothing more in life, like spending time on the storefront that is apparently so much better than GoG? Or playing some cool video game, the common thing we are all here for?
Composing this message has taken me 15 minutes of my life and I am doing it because I am fed up with all the shit-posting in this thread.

Be constructive instead of de-railing when you got something to say.
gog is awful now selling games broken, include drm,etc. there is a reason they are dying...
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Syphon72: Zoom has issues of there own.

They keep saying new games will be released soon, but we have not to seen many showing up. Then Zoom released a couple of games that had to be removed right away. The Outforce was released in broken statues. The game was supposed to be fixed in a couple of days. It's been two months now.
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Time4Tea: 25 games have been released on Zoom since the start of the year (which can be seen in their news posts). Yes, The Outforce has had issues, which they are working on, but they care about their quality - they take down games from sale that aren't working and don't put them back up again until they do. The same can't be said about GOG, who have a habit of leaving up broken games (e.g. rumor has it that the videos don't work properly in GOG's newly-released Prince of Qin).

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Syphon72: Their support is pretty bad. I had one issue I brought up three times with no help from Zoom support. Maybe they ignored me or did my issue get lost in discord. Anyways using discord for full support is a little odd to me.
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Time4Tea: Zoom's customer support is outstanding and vastly better than GOG's. I'm not sure about your particular case, but most people with support issues get responses within a couple of hours. Good luck getting a response from GOG to an issue within two weeks. There is a contact form on the website, but they recommend Discord because the response there is so much faster. Honestly, can you imagine GOG staff being responsive enough to directly reply to customers over Discord?

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Syphon72: Let's not forget the fact they have been around for 8 years but have a little over 400 games. Note: Zoom is counting DLC as how many games they have right now. But still, lacking and making mistakes.
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Time4Tea: The ticker on the front page states they have just over 450 games, which seems like a good number that is increasing steadily. Even if they're being included, the number of DLCs is very small - easily < 5%.
Yes, releasing 25 games this year, with half being games no one cares about like
1812: Napoleon Wars, Ostrich Runner, and Crazy plane, for example. With the rest mainly being games on steam or GOG already.

Not true they have games on their store that barely work or need mods like some GOG games. El Matador on Zoom is unplayable without modes, but they're still selling it. Pretty sure you can't beat the Incoming Subversion last mission because of a bug, but they're still selling it. Several games I bought from them have been buggy.

This store has been around for 8 years and has issues like GOG. You think with a smaller category, and everything would be more touched up. Their store webpage is little of a mess as well. With no pictures, some youtube videos of the game on zoom are unavailable. Doodle-devil doesn't even have a video, but only a description. Zoom has many issues for a small store.

Time4Tea, you seem to be shilling and ignoring Zoom issues. Is it because your ZOOM discord mode? I have a feeling that if zoom were to remove a game like Devotion. You would not call them out on it.

Think it's funny how you compared them to GOG right away. I did not even talk about GOG in my last post.
Post edited June 25, 2022 by Syphon72
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nightcraw1er.488: Whilst I hate to agree with @Syphon72, their support is not good. The form you mention will not get you help, simply an automated response stating to use discord. Frankly I dispise IM systems (stems from work where we have to use them all the time), and this has also made me think twice before buying from there as well. But support n any store regardless f industry is rubbish, either circular automated systems or chatbots which don’t work.
I'd put it like this: if you are ok with Discord, then Zoom's customer service is fantastic. It is far better than any other online game store I have seen. If you don't want to use Discord, then your experience may differ. I haven't used any support channels on there other than Discord, so can't really comment.

Although, it's worth mentioning that Zoom's user community is largely based around Discord. So, if you are not using it then you are probably going to miss out on some of the Zoom Platform experience. I know not everyone uses it, but it is widely used among gamers and Zoom's Discord channels are very friendly and welcoming.

I totally agree though that Zoom should have a good alternative option for support, aside from Discord. If that's not the case right now, then I hope they will improve it in future.
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Syphon72: Yes, releasing 25 games this year, with half being games no one cares about like
1812: Napoleon Wars, Ostrich Runner, and Crazy plane, for example. With the rest mainly being games on steam or GOG already.
What percentage of games that GOG releases are games that no-one cares about? A large segment of the user base doesn't seem to care for many of the hentai VN games that have been released lately, for example ...

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Syphon72: Not true they have games on their store that barely work or need mods like some GOG games. El Matador on Zoom is unplayable without modes, but they're still selling it. Pretty sure you can't beat the Incoming Subversion last mission because of a bug, but they're still selling it. Several games I bought from them have been buggy.
Your experience differs from mine. I have bought several dozen games on Zoom and all the ones I have played so far have worked very well. I have not encountered any game-breaking bugs. Did you report the games you are mentioning to their support?

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Syphon72: This store has been around for 8 years and has issues like GOG. You think with a smaller category, and everything would be more touched up. Their store webpage is little of a mess as well. With no pictures, some youtube videos of the game on zoom are unavailable. Doodle-devil doesn't even have a video, but only a description. Zoom has many issues for a small store.
Zoom upgraded it's website just a few months ago (which is more than can be said for GOG - when was the last time GOG upgraded anything besides the front store page?). I'm not saying the site is perfect and I agree there is room for improvement. They are a small business with far more limited resources than GOG, and they are punching above their weight in several categories.

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Syphon72: Time4Tea, you seem to be shilling and ignoring Zoom issues. Is it because your ZOOM discord mode? I have a feeling that if zoom were to remove a game like Devotion. You would not call them out on it.
So, if I prefer Zoom Platform over GOG, then I must be shilling? It couldn't be that I just prefer their store, because they are truly 100% DRM-free; their quality and customer support are better; they have no annoying client application; and they have a really friendly community? Those are the things I care about.

If they released a Hitman-like game with locked single-player content, yes I would call them out on it, for sure.

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Syphon72: Think it's funny how you compared them to GOG right away. I did not even talk about GOG in my last post.
This is the GOG forum, so it seems to be the obvious comparison to make? From my point-of-view, you seem to have a predisposition against Zoom platform: many of the things you seem to be criticizing them for are actually worse on GOG.
Post edited June 25, 2022 by Time4Tea
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Syphon72: Yes, releasing 25 games this year, with half being games no one cares about like
1812: Napoleon Wars, Ostrich Runner, and Crazy plane, for example. With the rest mainly being games on steam or GOG already.
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Time4Tea: What percentage of games that GOG releases are games that no-one cares about? A large segment of the user base doesn't seem to care for many of the hentai VN games that have been released lately, for example ...

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Syphon72: Not true they have games on their store that barely work or need mods like some GOG games. El Matador on Zoom is unplayable without modes, but they're still selling it. Pretty sure you can't beat the Incoming Subversion last mission because of a bug, but they're still selling it. Several games I bought from them have been buggy.
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Time4Tea: Your experience differs from mine. I have bought several dozen games on Zoom and all the ones I have played so far have worked very well. I have not encountered any game-breaking bugs. Did you report the games you are mentioning to their support?

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Syphon72: This store has been around for 8 years and has issues like GOG. You think with a smaller category, and everything would be more touched up. Their store webpage is little of a mess as well. With no pictures, some youtube videos of the game on zoom are unavailable. Doodle-devil doesn't even have a video, but only a description. Zoom has many issues for a small store.
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Time4Tea: Zoom upgraded it's website just a few months ago (which is more than can be said for GOG - when was the last time GOG upgraded anything besides the front store page?). I'm not saying the site is perfect and I agree there is room for improvement. They are a small business with far more limited resources than GOG, and they are punching above their weight in several categories.

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Syphon72: Time4Tea, you seem to be shilling and ignoring Zoom issues. Is it because your ZOOM discord mode? I have a feeling that if zoom were to remove a game like Devotion. You would not call them out on it.
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Time4Tea: So, if I prefer Zoom Platform over GOG, then I must be shilling? It couldn't be that I just prefer their store, because they are truly 100% DRM-free; their quality and customer support are better; they have no annoying client application; and they have a really friendly community? Those are the things I care about.

If they released a Hitman-like game with locked single-player content, yes I would call them out on it, for sure.

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Syphon72: Think it's funny how you compared them to GOG right away. I did not even talk about GOG in my last post.
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Time4Tea: This is the GOG forum, so it seems to be the obvious comparison to make? From my point-of-view, you seem to have a predisposition against Zoom platform: many of the things you seem to be criticizing them for are actually worse on GOG.
Again you bring up GOG when talking about Zoom. You have difficulty saying something good about Zoom without saying something negative about GOG. Your bias is showing, haha

I probably dump more money into Zoom than you, my friend. It's not like I don't have over 50 games from Zoom. Also, we know zoom barely has game sales. So they can be costly.

Anyways I'm done talking about Zoom. Have a good night and weekend.
Post edited June 26, 2022 by Syphon72
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Time4Tea:
Not sure whether you consider this part of your boycott or not, but if you do, you might want to mention it in your OP.

Based on a discussion in the insomnia thread, intermittently
from post 578
to post 606,
it seems that King of Seas is unable to save any game progress unless one plays via galaxy, making it unplayable without galaxy (since at least November 2021).
Post edited June 26, 2022 by mrkgnao
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Time4Tea:
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mrkgnao: Not sure whether you consider this part of your boycott or not, but if you do, you might want to mention it in your OP.

Based on a discussion in the insomnia thread, intermittently
from post 578
to post 606,
it seems that King of Seas is unable to save any game progress unless one plays via galaxy, making it unplayable without galaxy (since at least November 2021).
I would argue that's a problem and DRM. If I follow what you're saying Galaxy manages your ability to use the save feature of a product you already own. Intentional or not that's pretty bad. Unless it's Space Invaders or something I think saving your game is a pretty typical feature, but if the dev chose not to include it....uh...alright. Only allowing that feature when using Galaxy though is absolutely DRM though I think.
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Time4Tea:
You might also want to mention GOG's massive deletion of negative reviews --- regardless of their content, so it seems --- from the new Blade Ruiner game page, discussed at length here:
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/experience_the_blade_runner_enhanced_edition_16aea.

Here is a link to some of the deleted reviews:
https://i.ibb.co/1fYHj2q/gogbladerunnerdeletedreviews.jpg
Post edited June 27, 2022 by mrkgnao
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Time4Tea:
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mrkgnao: Not sure whether you consider this part of your boycott or not, but if you do, you might want to mention it in your OP.

Based on a discussion in the insomnia thread, intermittently
from post 578
to post 606,
it seems that King of Seas is unable to save any game progress unless one plays via galaxy, making it unplayable without galaxy (since at least November 2021).
You should read further into the matter. You're missing something..
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lexluthermiester: You should read further into the matter. You're missing something..
Could you point me in the right direction?
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Time4Tea:
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mrkgnao: You might also want to mention GOG's massive deletion of negative reviews --- regardless of their content, so it seems --- from the new Blade Ruiner game page, discussed at length here:
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/experience_the_blade_runner_enhanced_edition_16aea.

Here is a link to some of the deleted reviews:
https://i.ibb.co/1fYHj2q/gogbladerunnerdeletedreviews.jpg
What's the reason for removing some reviews but still leaving others with the same rating up? Is this GOG or the developer removing the reviews? I have seen developers do this on steam before.
Post edited June 28, 2022 by Syphon72
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mrkgnao: You might also want to mention GOG's massive deletion of negative reviews --- regardless of their content, so it seems --- from the new Blade Ruiner game page, discussed at length here:
https://www.gog.com/forum/general/experience_the_blade_runner_enhanced_edition_16aea.

Here is a link to some of the deleted reviews:
https://i.ibb.co/1fYHj2q/gogbladerunnerdeletedreviews.jpg
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Syphon72: What's the reason for removing some reviews but still leaving others with the same rating up? Is this GOG or the developer removing the reviews? I have seen developers do this on steam before.
I don't think publishers can delete reviews by themselves. I believe they can only ask GOG to do it, which I wouldn't be surprised if they indeed did in this case. But at the end of the day, I expect it's GOG that actually deleted the reviews.

As for the deletion being inconsistent (assuming it was indeed inconsistent --- I didn't check), it's a good indication that GOG did it. It's their trademark.
Post edited June 28, 2022 by mrkgnao
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Syphon72: What's the reason for removing some reviews but still leaving others with the same rating up? Is this GOG or the developer removing the reviews? I have seen developers do this on steam before.
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mrkgnao: I don't think publishers can delete reviews by themselves. I believe they can only ask GOG to do it, which I wouldn't be surprised if they indeed did in this case. But at the end of the day, I expect it's GOG that actually deleted the reviews.

As for the deletion being inconsistent (assuming it was indeed inconsistent --- I didn't check), it's a good indication that GOG did it. It's their trademark.
Interesting so I did little research and seem developers cannot delete review on steam, but flag for steam to maybe remove. So if that's the cause steam has removed some reviews for developers. Unless these people are lying about it happening.

So probably means GOG is doing the same thing for Nightdive Studios or not. Also, I could swear there were more than 95 reviews for Blade Runner: Enhanced Edition on steam a couple of days ago. Little off-topic I know. but this whole blade runner remaster is crazy. Not sure what to think about Nightdrive now.
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mrkgnao: I don't think publishers can delete reviews by themselves. I believe they can only ask GOG to do it, which I wouldn't be surprised if they indeed did in this case. But at the end of the day, I expect it's GOG that actually deleted the reviews.

As for the deletion being inconsistent (assuming it was indeed inconsistent --- I didn't check), it's a good indication that GOG did it. It's their trademark.
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Syphon72: Interesting so I did little research and seem developers cannot delete review on steam, but flag for steam to maybe remove. So if that's the cause steam has removed some reviews for developers. Unless these people are lying about it happening.

So probably means GOG is doing the same thing for Nightdive Studios or not. Also, I could swear there were more than 95 reviews for Blade Runner: Enhanced Edition on steam a couple of days ago. Little off-topic I know. but this whole blade runner remaster is crazy. Not sure what to think about Nightdrive now.
I am sure the same thing happens on steam and other stores as well, possibly with the Blade Ruiner game, certainly with other games in the past. Stores seem to have no respect for the work of others left under their charge, be they users, reviewers, modders, etc.
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5P34R: @ Time4Tea

Thanks heaps for your efforts with this thread and happy holidays guys.
I'm a little late to the party but I'd like to second/third/fourth this. We haven't always agreed on the details, but credit is due to your persistence Time4Tea. Not to mention your impressive rep. :)
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MarkoH01: Actually it is one of the laws I'd like to see implemented worldwide. People nowadays should be nicer to each other and while I am not a fan of a censored internet at all (you know I dislike censoring) I also think that some boundaries aren't bad ... boundaries that are good for everybody - not just the youth.
While I'd agree with the "don't be a jerk" sentiment, laws are a really blunt tool to enforce this, and trying to use them in this way is likely to result in appalling consequences for legitimately critical speech.
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MarkoH01: Anyway - right now I am thinking about not participating anymore on the GOG forum at all - at least on the nternational discussions (still would support my own threads and contribute to giveaways and other support threads ... also the German forum mostly still is quite "normal"). Participating in discussions in the international forum has lost its fun and most people that aren't toxic and mean have already left a long time ago, anyway
This would be a pity - since by leaving you are letting the "trolls" win. Instead, consider every well-reasoned and thoughtful post you make here to be an "up yours" to the half-witted knuckle-dragging down-voters and take heart that most of them have games collections the size of their e-peens (that's how they can spend so much time here venting) and therefore offer little commercial interest to GOG anyway. ;)
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tfishell: @anyone: where are you primarily buying games currently (if you're even buying games)? Are you buying DRM-free games on Steam?
Not purchasing at all. I have a large enough collection from GOG, HumbleBundle (from when they did DRM-free) and IndieRoyale (before Desura crashed and burned) plus physical discs, that I doubt I'll get through them all before I shuffle off my mortal coil.

While I did purchase a few games on GOG on the 29th January 2022 ($23.13 total) I've not bought anything since and only spent $9.74 in 2021 (compared to $131.71 in 2020 and $233.15 in 2019) so I consider that a pretty solid (even if not 100%) boycott.
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RavenCrowwise: ...On the opposite,all I can do is praise and support them as much as I can. As I've been doing for a couple of years already. I only buy games on GOG atm. I left almost 1000 games on Steam and didn't grow my library there for a couple of years already in favor of GOG.

Why? well for starters I am old school, in my early 40s and love Good Old RPG games like Baldurs gate, etc. and love to keep DRM Free copies of my games on Hard drive. This is the only place I can get both...
In your case, there are a couple of events here at GOG that should surely attract your concern:

* the original versions of Baldur's Gate 1/2, Icewind Dale, Planescape and Neverwinter Nights are no longer available separately on GOG - you have to purchase Beamdog's "enhanced" versions (at a much higher price) to gain access to the originals as an "extra". This is more Beamdog's fault but nonetheless, it reflects poorly on GOG's service;
* GOG's zeal in pushing Galaxy has included bundling a Galaxy.dll file (even in single-player games) which breaks compatibility with older versions of Windows. So unless you're happy to keep upgrading to Microsoft's latest, you now need to check that any games updates don't result in similar problems on your system. And GOG don't currently provide offline downloads of previous versions to allow users to recover from such a situation;
* the inclusion of extras in Cyberpunk 2077 that require online activation. Yes these are optional - but EA used a similar tactic with Dragon Age: Origins. When there was an initial outcry over the possibility of it requiring online activation, they backtracked and used a disc check - but included online activation for all the DLC (including the supposedly free ones supplied with the base game). This then led to them using online activation for all subsequent releases (although Dragon Age: Origins is now available with all DLC DRM-free on GOG, DA2 and DA3 are not).
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Time4Tea: Also, are the modders being paid for that content? Because, if not, in what way is GOG 'supporting' those modders?
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richlind33: I think the proper term is "leeching", but taken to this level it comes close to stealing.
Given that GOG is offering that title for free, it seems rather strong to accuse them of theft or lack of "support". Indeed, many modders may prefer to avoid payment since it (a) obliges them to offer support and updates and (b) can create legal issues with the original publisher/developer. Presumably Bethesda/ZeniMax/Microsoft is OK with this, but what GOG is really doing is giving this mod a higher public profile and, by providing an alternate download option, reducing their bandwidth bills.
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SOURCE_OF_TRUTH: ...However, since investing time and money into DRM-systems is a futile thing to do for a small developer anway, I do not fully understand the rest of your post's content. Why exactly does this topic matter to you as a dev? For my consumer-me, the DRM-issue is super important but my dev-me does not care!

Bear with me...

Fact: Your game will get cracked and shared and pirated, unless you invest lots of money into top-tech stuff like an up-to-date Denuvo.
Fact: That will be out of scope for you, no offense.

In short, you are not loosing anything by releasing DRM-free...
While I would support the arguments made here, I would suggest that the real problem for developers is not piracy, but over-supply. Game players today have overwhelming choice including time-hogging MMOs, older games revitalised with mods, a vast selection of current games and the real oldies accessible via emulation/virtualisation. If my situation is typical, then most people have larger games collections than they will ever complete and are therefore only likely to consider "impulse purchases" - either an incredibly cheap new game or a super-discounted older one.

So really the best advice to a new developer is don't bother unless your game is completely original/different from everything else, or will be available at that "impulse purchase" price. There's just too much competition to make success likely unless you are incredibly lucky.
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SOURCE_OF_TRUTH: ...By the way, I am a big fan of Jeff Vogel and he did a GDC talk a few years back and provided some similar (but not identical) advice...
Worth linking to his blog entry as well: The Final Answer For What To Do To Prevent Piracy.