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General discussionAnnouncement: Big Preorders & Launch Day Releases Coming!(4041 posts)(4041 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted February 21, 2014
The DRM-Free Revolution Continues with Big Pre-Orders and Launch Day Releases!

Good news! GOG.com is going to bring you more fantastic launch day releases, preorders, and other exciting new content from some of our favorite developers. We've lined up 3 big titles that we will be bringing to GOG.com in the next couple of months for sale or preorder that we think will be hits with all of our gamers; and we have more equally exciting games coming up soon.

If you've been a member of the site for a long time, you may recall that when we launched sales of The Witcher 2 on GOG.com, we had to add in regional pricing. The game cost different amounts in in the US, the UK, the European Union, and Australia. We're doing something like that once again in order to bring you new titles from fantastic bigger studios. Since we don't accept currencies other than USD on GOG.com right now, we'll be charging the equivalent of the local price in USD for these titles. We wish that we could offer these games at flat prices everywhere in the world, but the decision on pricing is always in our partners' hands, and regional pricing is becoming the standard around the globe. We're doing this because we believe that there's no better way to accomplish our overall goals for DRM-Free gaming and GOG.com. We need more games, devs, and publishers on board to make DRM-Free gaming something that's standard for all of the gaming world!

That brings with it more good news, though! As mentioned, we have three games we're launching soon with regional pricing--two RPGs and a strategy game--and while we can't tell you what they are yet because breaking an NDA has more severe penalties than just getting a noogie, we're confident that you'll be as excited about these games as we are. For a limited time, we will be offering anyone who pre-orders or buys one of them a free game from a selection as a gift from GOG.com, just like we did for The Witcher 2.

If you have any questions, hit us up in the comments below and we'll be happy to answer (to the best of our ability).

EDIT: Since we've answered a lot of the common questions already here (and lest you think that we've ignored you), it may be handy for you to check out the forum thread about this and search for staff answers by clicking this link here. (hat tip to user Eli who reminded us that the feature even exists. :)
Posted February 23, 2014
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JohnnyDollar: The argument used here is practically the definition of a slippery slope fallacy, isn't it?

Even if it's not considered fallacious, it's usefulness in an argument seems pretty narrow, because you're basically arguing over predicting future events. It may be useful if you were arguing over something like recurring weather patterns or some such. Agree, disagree?
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groze: Absolutely agreed, that's what I was trying to say. It can, in very rare occasions, be used as a logic argument, but it's pretty much a fallacy every other time. The way it has been used in this thread, so far, has always been the fallacious version of it.
Actually I've seen some logical slippery slope arguments in this thread - I disagree with them, but there is a strong connection between DRM and regional pricing, mostly in the necessity to enforce regional pricing (which is what I am assuming you are referring to).

Further, the slippery slope has already come to pass in many people's minds as GOG giving up one of its core principles (and flat-pricing was a core principle) to get more newer games was what some people warned against when GOG started selling newer games. Now to some this isn't a bad thing, but to others this is the culmination of everything they worried about.
Posted February 23, 2014
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jackster79: I added emphasis to what you said that points out what I was trying to say that I am hoping for.

I do not doubt about all the re-negotiations, price-changes, etc. that will be coming down the line. What I am hoping for though (as really, that is all I can do - going the pol route is worthless, and as a single individual my $$$ or lack thereof is not going to count for much) is for the flip-side to happen: the floodgates open to allow GOG to acquire a large enough catalog that they are able to re-neogiate away the regional pricing in the future. They know there is a large customer base that wants it (otherwise they would have done region-pricing from the beginning), and if they can get large enough to get enough leverage to re-institute flat-pricing by persuading publishers to go back to that model, this will be a short-term loss for a long-term gain.

It is far-fetched, and requires quite a leap of faith, yet it is all that is open to us consumers at this point. I am jaded enough that I do not expect enough people will cease buying to support a principle such that it forces the publishers to change their minds (for recent examples I only have to point to Diablo 3 and SimCity).
The reason I oppose the current regional pricing model is that it selectively benefits only a couple of countries (group A), leaves a couple of others untouched (group B) and screws over all others (group C), regardless of actual purchasing power. Now, it is a given that there’s profit from all three groups, just not the same amount/ percentage of profit. What the current regional pricing model and its implementation seems to do is using group C to make up the difference in profit from the other two groups, and then some more.

If there was a pricing model that would offer lower prices to those that really need them and would benefit from it (i.e. not based on geographic location but actual purchasing power) but not at the expense of others, I’d be all for it.


EDIT: restructure of last sentence to make sense in relation to what I said above it
Post edited February 24, 2014 by HypersomniacLive
Posted February 23, 2014
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groze: Slippery slope is actually a full fledged logical argument, you're absolutely right. But the way people keep using it here is, in fact, its fallacious form.

Two examples for you to peruse at your leisure:

http://www.logicalfallacies.info/presumption/slippery-slope/

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
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Selderij: Slippery slope as a fallacy requires the end result to be logically and factually far-fetched. GOG abandoning a core value for X amount of projected money is now a reality that is actually happening. What's far-fetched about GOG doing it again, just for a little bit and surely for a good reason?

Like I said before, it's a fallacy in itself to assume any speculation to be a slippery slope fallacy.

I do agree that instead of worrying about a hypothetical future, more people should take the current change of policy just as seriously as any future implications it potentially has.
I think we should just agree to disagree and stop going after each other. You're more than welcome to keep brandishing your -- valid, in my opinion -- arguments, as long as I'm free to express mine as much as I feel like.

Because, you know what?, being able to speak your mind is one of my core values.

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crazy_dave: Actually I've seen some logical slippery slope arguments in this thread - I disagree with them, but there is a strong connection between DRM and regional pricing, mostly in the necessity to enforce regional pricing (which is what I am assuming you are referring to).

Further, the slippery slope has already come to pass in many people's minds as GOG giving up one of its core principles (and flat-pricing was a core principle) to get more newer games was what some people warned against when GOG started selling newer games. Now to some this isn't a bad thing, but to others this is the culmination of everything they worried about.
Slippery slope fallacies are always logical, hence why we categorize them as logical fallacies. Logic can be flawed, and the slippery slope logic, be it more fantasist or more probable, it's always a flawed logical system, as it's based on prediction, hypothesis and presumption.
Post edited February 23, 2014 by groze
Posted February 23, 2014
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Pseudospawn: Thank you GOG.com for your honesty and candor on this topic, I hope you are similarly direct and open in the future when you betray your other core principles.

p.s. in the age of digital distribution, regional pricing is one of the few solid enticements/justifications for piracy.
Candor? They left out all the relevant details here. We've got dozens of pages that are arguing about things that they didn't tell us.
Posted February 23, 2014
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adamhm: And GOG still are offering DRM-free games at a flat price. Only now they'll also be offering some new DRM-free games with regional pricing. Games that otherwise would have only been sold with elsewhere with both DRM and regional pricing.
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JohnnyDollar: You could yell that over a loud speaker over and over all night long and it wouldn't do any good. The existence of "REGIONAL PRICING" in any way, shape, or form, is what everyone is hung up on right now. :/
With good reason, remember GOG had made flat-pricing a cornerstone of their consumer-policy and touted it as their major contribution to treating consumers better than their competition, that they didn't allow publishers to rip them off.

Now I happen to think that flat pricing came with its own inequities, but generally treated those who normally get shafted better than most current regional pricing models. Maybe GOG will come up with something even more fair, but if this is a distributor driven decision where often regional pricing is enforced on publishers and developers who want to sell physical copies (as it was for CDPR and TW2), I doubt it will be in their hands.

My guess is that GOG decided flat-pricing was a battle they couldn't win and DRM-free is one they can. It's possible the court case where GOG and CDPR lost against Namco Bandai over TW2 regional pricing helped determine this change in course.
Post edited February 23, 2014 by crazy_dave
Posted February 23, 2014
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adamhm: And GOG still are offering DRM-free games at a flat price. Only now they'll also be offering some new DRM-free games with regional pricing. Games that otherwise would have only been sold with elsewhere with both DRM and regional pricing.
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JohnnyDollar: You could yell that over a loud speaker over and over all night long and it wouldn't do any good. The existence of "REGIONAL PRICING" in any way, shape, or form, is what everyone is hung up on right now. :/
Since GOG.com has chosen "flat pricing" as one of their core values, since GOG.com has worn "flat pricing" as a badge to distinguish itself from the competition, since GOG.com has used "flat pricing" to get customers to buy at their shop, I think it's understandable that some people are hung up about it.
Posted February 23, 2014
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tfishell: I was initially drawn to GOG by their commitment to re-releasing games forgotten by time, the "underdog" titles, and adding extra value by making sure these games ran on new machines.
(snip)
Nevertheless, I still found reasons to support GOG. I don't mean to be a braggart, but for the past few months I've posted to r/games any new "old" games or meaningful games that were released on GOG, and I'm sure doing so brought in a few extra sales. I took the opportunity to mention GOG on Reddit whenever possible, and when relevant on Facebook. For a few months, when I had free time, I even helped "organize" people to assist in trying to find old game rights, I and several others like SCPM, IAmSinister, etc. essentially doing GOG's work w/o pay.

Why? Because I was passionate about what GOG stood for, and I viewed GOG as an "underdog" who deserved attention when they were helping other "underdogs" (mostly old unknown games, but you can add good new indie games in there too somewhat).

Now...

I'm not sure entirely sure what to think, plainly. I don't think I can keep trusting, mentioning. and defending GOG. Perhaps, in the end ("wait and see") it really won't end up being a big deal, but I'm not going to "mindlessly" defend GOG especially when so many others have extremely serious concerns.
Not to turn Your effort into a negative, because I think it's a fantastic thing You guys did in helping out with tracking down one of the gazillion hidden gems out there (and I think this could be another great alternative form of GOGs growth, encouraging this "grassroots" community involvement). But seeing You guys doing "their job", and seeing one of the blues in another, unconnected instance (wish I could find the quote now) saying they didn't have the time to pursue one of the classics that were brought up, made me wonder just how much are they truly involved in this, once core, aspect of this place.

TET and others often bring up System Shock 2 and other classics that came here after the drop of the acronym, but as I've been trying to figure out, do we know exactly how much of a role does GOG play in these "victories" these days? Can GOG really be praised for allowing virtual shelf space for oldies, when other places more often than not also carry a DRM-free version shortly after, and with the seemingly increasing reliance on others doing the "dirty work"?

And again, maybe they indeed are knee deep in the job, paving the road and plowing the field for others to "finish the job" so to speak. Just wish there was some indication of that. With these ongoing developments going on, it's getting harder and harder to just blindly trust them as being the "good guys".
Post edited February 23, 2014 by MoP
Posted February 23, 2014
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groze: Because, you know what?, being able to speak your mind is one of my core values.
Let's hope you don't abandon it when a good(for you) deal comes along.
Posted February 23, 2014
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Ichwillnichtmehr: We will never know if the games would only be sold with both DRM and regional pricing.

If GOG.com had stood by the core-values, that may have changed.
It's very unlikely. As I said earlier in this thread, the big issue for many of these big titles is retail distribution, and the agreements and set prices that publishers have with local distributors that they cannot undercut.

Anyway, let's wait and see what games GOG has managed to sign that they feel are worth sacrificing their worldwide pricing policy for.

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Ekaros: For some of us the DRM is smaller evil of the two.

The other one forces me to install third party software and the other one cost me significantly more, currently I take the savings...
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Senteria: I stand with you. If I have to choose between filling in some key in order to use the game I downloaded, I'd be totally fine with it actually. I cared way more about flat pricing.
Also to add to what I said before, it's more than just filling in some key. It's about relinquishing control over what you've bought to a third party - the same third party who sets those unfair regional prices you're complaining about right now. Do you trust those same people with control over what you've "bought" from them?

The very same people who thought rootkit-like DRM, limited activations etc were a good idea? Also there's precedent for games being removed from peoples' libraries on Steam before. Best to just not have any DRM in the first place.
Posted February 23, 2014
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Ichwillnichtmehr: We will never know if the games would only be sold with both DRM and regional pricing.

If GOG.com had stood by the core-values, that may have changed.
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adamhm: It's very unlikely. As I said earlier in this thread, the big issue for many of these big titles is retail distribution, and the agreements and set prices that publishers have with local distributors that they cannot undercut.

Anyway, let's wait and see what games GOG has managed to sign that they feel are worth sacrificing their worldwide pricing policy for.

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Senteria: I stand with you. If I have to choose between filling in some key in order to use the game I downloaded, I'd be totally fine with it actually. I cared way more about flat pricing.
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adamhm: Also to add to what I said before, it's more than just filling in some key. It's about relinquishing control over what you've bought to a third party - the same third party who sets those unfair regional prices you're complaining about right now. Do you trust those same people with control over what you've "bought" from them?

The very same people who thought rootkit-like DRM, limited activations etc were a good idea? Also there's precedent for games being removed from peoples' libraries on Steam before. Best to just not have any DRM in the first place.
I agree with that of course wholeheartedly. I hope when I wake up the people @ GOG's headquarters will come up with a good solution or message that people can live with. :P
Posted February 23, 2014
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groze: Slippery slope fallacies are always logical, hence why we categorize them as logical fallacies. Logic can be flawed, and the slippery slope logic, be it more fantasist or more probable, it's always a flawed logical system, as it's based on prediction, hypothesis and presumption.
Not entirely, the problem with slippery slope arguments is not just prediction. Every argument against doing something is if x happens then y will happen and here's why. Slippery slope are fallacious because the prediction is taken way too far beyond the realm in which truly logical connections can be made. If x happens, then y will happen, then z will happen, then a, b, c, etc ..., then the world blows up. Slippery slope is the prediction of a slope, there have to be multiple events predicted each one leading seemingly inexorably (in the argument) to another. The arguments here are not truly slippery slope, but single-step predictions which are not fallacious. They may be wrong, but not fallacious. So I should've been more nuanced: the arguments used to predict DRM that are valid are not slippery slope, but simple predictive arguments (i.e. a standard argument).
Post edited February 23, 2014 by crazy_dave
Posted February 23, 2014
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groze: Because, you know what?, being able to speak your mind is one of my core values.
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Ichwillnichtmehr: Let's hope you don't abandon it when a good(for you) deal comes along.
I don't know. People change, and I'm not in the future, to be able to answer that question. Are you? I don't think any of us are. Right now, which is the time I'm living in, yes, it's a value I hold dear and I think I'll keep being true to it.

I hope you feel like a big man, now, siding with the bullying majority and having taken a sarcastic hit at the downvoted guy. Good for you.
Posted February 23, 2014
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Ichwillnichtmehr: We will never know if the games would only be sold with both DRM and regional pricing.

If GOG.com had stood by the core-values, that may have changed.
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adamhm: It's very unlikely. As I said earlier in this thread, the big issue for many of these big titles is retail distribution, and the agreements and set prices that publishers have with local distributors that they cannot undercut.

Anyway, let's wait and see what games GOG has managed to sign that they feel are worth sacrificing their worldwide pricing policy for.
We had a lot of new games(No AAA titles, I admit) here on GOG.com, both DRM-free and with a flat price, and their number seemed to increase, so I don't think the situation is that desperate.

And, for me personally, it doesn't matter what games they managed to sign on with this.
Posted February 23, 2014
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groze: I think we should just agree to disagree and stop going after each other. You're more than welcome to keep brandishing your -- valid, in my opinion -- arguments, as long as I'm free to express mine as much as I feel like.

Because, you know what?, being able to speak your mind is one of my core values.
When have I ever limited your freedom of expression? Is questioning your logic and pointing out possible errors truly an attack on your ability to speak your mind on a discussion forum? Do you think that your opinion is so sacred that nobody may comment on it unless it's all positive? What about all the times you've been dismissing people's concerns as reactionary bellyaching? Is this sentence a malicious attempt to prevent you from writing anything?
Posted February 23, 2014
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Ichwillnichtmehr: Let's hope you don't abandon it when a good(for you) deal comes along.
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groze: I don't know. People change, and I'm not in the future, to be able to answer that question. Are you? I don't think any of us are. Right now, which is the time I'm living in, yes, it's a value I hold dear and I think I'll keep being true to it.

I hope you feel like a big man, now, siding with the bullying majority and having taken a sarcastic hit at the downvoted guy. Good for you.
This was no "sarcastic hit", as you call it.

You hold your core values very dear, and you want to keep being true to them.

I hold my core values very dear, and I want to keep being true to them.

Is it so strange, that alot of us hold GOG.com's core values very dear, and that we want them to keep being true to them?
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionAnnouncement: Big Preorders & Launch Day Releases Coming!(4041 posts)(4041 posts)
(4041 posts)