I'm still not past the shareware part. I've been playing the fence (to maximize returns/keep my options open), but seeing my character get pissed off at everyone for using a certain G to the F makes it clear to me that, once again, canisters = not worth it.

But should I just dump playing the fence, pick a side, and go all out?

(Geneforge 3 was nice, the ending sans canisters was alright too)

Geneforge 4 was an extremely bad game, considering you liked 1 and 2, and thought 3 was ok.

I found that while 4 had a slightly better story than 3, here's what I don't really like about 4.

1-You really have to be somewhat aligned to shapers to get to certain areas without too much trouble. This is extremely frustrating as the game flat-out states that you can align with either side. Even though 3 was harder, it was better than 4 in that aspect.

2-The fens of aziraph are extremely aggravating, especially for shaper and guardian characters as there are respawning enemies through 3-4 entirely linked zones. This makes agents and serviles insanely powerful throughout the game, with shapers and Guardians actually decent. But magic is still the powerhouse of that game which really isn't the worst thing because Agents and serviles are cool in that aspect.

3-There are some very aggravating leadership and mechanics requirements that would be unheard of in previous games. You need at least 8 mechanics and 8 leadership to get through the game without major frustration.

Other than that, if you can handle those 3, the game is ok. If anything, guardians and all classes get a boost from 4 as its easier to move around/attack. But I haven't beaten it. In my opinion, the game dies when you get to the fens.

What I don't like mostly is the fens of aziraph and shaper and rebel fence sitting. The canister thingy I could really care less about. I never used canisters much at all.

If you don't want to bother, I would say Geneforge 5 is better than 1, 2, 3, and 4 due to its simplistic features and very good story.

To be honest, the Shaper/Rebel fence sitting for every single possible decision has been kind of a mixed blessing/pain in the ass.

The fens seem like they will be entirely obnoxious, and I remember you speaking about the joys of them at some point.

We'll see how far I get, so far I've been sticking with the fence sitting and playing all sides toward the middle, but refusing to use canisters. I won't be able to finish the game as quickly this time since crunch week has started.

Im going to be honest, I enjoyed many parts of that game. But it was the fens that really made me hate getting further. None of the earlier games if I remember correctly (at least 1 and 2) had that. Oh wait, 2 had respawning undead, but still that was 1 lvl.

That was the North Gate to Benerii-us right? Fortunately you could duck between the canyons for a breather.

I refer to it as a pain in the ass because part of me wants to just play the game as a pro-Shaper/pro-Rebel purist, but then the other feels like I should just do the fence the entire time.

geneforge 4 is probably my favorite game in the series-it strikes a nice balance of plot and exploration, IMO. Cannisters have a pretty big impact on the game, unlike 1 and 5 (and to a lesser extent, 3-despite the main character beign a rebel. The fens can be a pain in the butt, but honestly they are nowhere near as much of a problem as the swamp in Geneforge 5. Aside from the fen in G4, the rest of the game is excellent-it maintains an excellent feeling of plot progression throughout the game and makes the palyer feel like they are someone important throughout the game, instead of just some errand boy/girl. If you are planning on going pro-shaper, I would definately reconmend going cannister free in this game- you will get a much more rewarding epilogue for your efforts (as opposed to Geneforge 3+5)


As for the respawning enemies...2-5 had areas with respawning enemies (not sure about 1, not far enough) through a variety of means, so I don't think it is really a big deal. As for leadership/mechanics, I don't really think it's a big deal considering lifecrafters with high leadership/mechanics builds will be making themselves weaker in combat skills in order to get those ranks, making combat areas tougher for them-so I don't really 'get' this complaint when it comes up.

You guys are lucky you got past that shaper in the swamp in that game. I can't. This is the curse I get for switching my previous game's class (agent) to shaper. I think I might need to switch my character tactics because the shaper class sucks. I play a shaper, but they are terribly weak. Im going to try an infiltrator and go solo and see how that turns out. Definitely different tactics to use per character. Most of the character classes you get suck. Shapers are crap because they rely on creations, and once the line runs thin, they die usually in a most horrible way. Then there's warrior's who are worthless. Shocktroopers are the worst class in game because combat and shaping is useless and doesn't reinforce as much as magic. The only 2 classes that I can stand is the infiltrator and servile who can defeat as many enemies as a shaper, by themselves.

I JUST got to the swamps, so we will see how this works out. I have also still not used a single canister, the insanity that comes with it is strongly emphasized to be not worth it.

So far, I've found that while I sympathize with Shaper ideology, I don't sympathize with Shaper practice.
The one rebel guy who gives the speech about inferior beings put me off as well, but not half as much as the Shaper torture squads.

My biggest problem with Shaper ideology is the complete unwillingness to adapt to a changing world.
I don't know much about the Trakovites yet, but I find myself kind of sympathizing with them (though they seem fairly similar to the Templars in Invisible War).

The shapers are gangsters, plain and simple. The trakovites are hard to figure out, but are the bad guys in the shaper's eyes in all games. Jeff mentioned to me once that all the sides are all scum in some way shape or form, lol. Look on the forums if you want to find out what everyone thinks. There's up to 20 different sects that you might not know of considered sides on the forums.

I dunno about Shapers being gangsters. They have their reasons. Playing god is a much larger responsibility than counting cash. One problem is how fanatical they are about killing sentient serviles/drayks and lording over everyone else as though they are little deities. The hypocrisy is readily apparent. Their attitude of genocide over adaptation on some level runs counter to their "power with responsibility" argument. Rather than take responsibility for their actions (what they preach on and on about), they feel that Team America is the solution.
The Trakovites (so far) seem to be like the Templars or Purity First in the Deus Ex series. No magic/modification or any over the top WMDs.
The Rebels are almost as bad as the Shapers in that they're willing to do whatever it takes to win, even if it means completely destroying who they are.

For the record, I just finished Geneforge 4 on Rebel and Trakovite endings without canisters.

That was certainly very interesting.

Since I found a nice little hack that amps up my walking speed, I might go ahead and try again with the Shapers.

Personally I am mroe sympathetic with the Shapers than the Rebels. If there is anything that the rebellion difinatively shows over the course of the series, it is that uncontrolled shapingis a bad, bad thing. For allof their tyrannical ways, the Shapers realize this and devote a large amount of time and resources towards stamping this out. For example-one of the primary duties of the agents is to hunt down and kill rogue creations before they can do any damage-that doesn't sound very irresponsible to me, and the shaper that created the giant rats you see over the series is stated to have been executed for their actions. This sort of behavior is in stark contrast to how the rebels handle themselves, and irresponsible shaping seems to be one of their most defining characteristics. they create spawners and creators for the exclusive purpose of creating rogue creations, they use cannsiters and geneforges to gain shaping power without any form of discipline that the route of study and experimentation that shapers use provides while simultaneously stripping away the humanity and sanity from its users-a practice that is not only encouraged, but at least in some places *forced* (look at the geneforge 4 intro for evidence) They downplay the risks to recruits (look at geneforge 4 again) and actively look down on anyone who does not use cannisters. While the shapers may have handled the serviles irresponsibly, the rebels in turn created the spawners, creators, unbound and shredbugs with the express purpose of using them irresponsibly. Similarly, their attitude towards gazers would best be termed as 'hands off' despite the fact that these pleasent fellows go around mindcontrolling humans and creations willy-nilly, subjecting them to even worse servitude than what all but the strictist shapers woudl propose.

And however evil the Shapers may be, lets not forget that the rebels demonstrate with ready abandon across the series a desire and capacity to repeatedly commit crimes of equal or even worse stature. Look at the endings to Geneforge 3 and Geneforge 4 and Geneforge 5 to see how the rebels treat civilians, and their desire to exterminate the shapers is even more total than the shapers desire to exterminate the rebels. Compare Alwan's ending in G5 to the Drakon ending or Rawal's ending, for example. They rarely take prisoners and readily torture the ones they do get, invariably to death (where the shapers will sometimes torture, but seem to prefer a quick and tidy execution) Rebels feed prisoners to creations, starve them to death, torture them to death, leave them to die of exposure. Moderate shapers are killed alongside strict shapers overwhelmingly-they rarely compromise. By contrast, the shapers can and do-in Geneforge 4 and 5. Even in Geneforge 5, the 'traditionalist' shaper victory ending is suprisingly light on the rebels, and the player can be rewarded for their loyalty despite being cannister/geneforge warped and potentially a servile. Meanwhile, rebel endings invariably end with massacres and genocide.

In short, as bad as the shapers are, the rebels do everything evil the shapers do and do it to an even more reprehensible degree.

I just finished all of the endings for Geneforge 4. The good rebel ending, the good Trakovite ending, and the good Shaper ending.
I completely sympathize and agree with everything that the Shapers do, except the genocide part. The Shapers are fair to humans, but then pretend that the creations are non-sentient and inferior.
I really want to like the Shapers.

The rebels are wrong, but like Greta emphasizes, they're wrong out of pure desperation. If the Shapers compromised a little more, the creations would not be so extreme.

I preferred the Trakovite ending as I feel like it would lead to more of a compromised state.

Time to start Geneforge 5.... and canisters.

Hey man I just finished Geneforge 3 for my guardian. I went a more squad leader route and had just me and my cryoa slaughter everything in sight. I really enjoyed the game because my cryoa was tough at end game and so was my guardian and because it was a 2 person party, which is fun.

I was going to ask you about Geneforge 4. Im thinking on going around with 1 battle or fire creation like I did with my cryoa. What creation that I can get fairly early on would be useful.

I haven't played Geneforge 4 in a while as I never finished it. Im thinking of using a roamer, claw bug or something else of the low creatures I can get early. Would you or anyone know which of those are decent in g4? These games are so much fun when you know what to do for lvling up!

Was it better to level up creations in Geneforge 4?

It feels like it's been years since I played it (even though it was barely a month ago).