It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
Dual Class is a tricky affair with 1e D&D. Sure, you can manage to multi-class a human with it in a roundabout way, but the class equipment restrictions usually are in play.

For instance, do you want a dual class Mage-Fighter? Sure, it's neat to have a mage with 90 hitpoints, but you need to take off that armor before you can cast anything. Which leaves you open to an attack that round.

But anyhoo, the point is, I decided to dual class my Thief, Cutty, into a Fighter, at level 9.

My reasoning here was, I could get that nifty backstab perk in combat, which sometimes makes all the difference, and he wouldn't be too squishy and would have a decent enough THAC0. Plus, once I get to 9th level, I can start getting those sweet d10 hitpoints!

Well, the jokes on me on two fronts....
1. A fighter stops getting that d10 roll on his hitpoints at level 10, so it really didn't make my hitpoints much better.

2. The backstab mechanic is really picky....
a. You need to be behind the foe (ie hes getting attacked at least twice from the opposite direction)
b. The thing needs to have a back per se (you can't backstab a gelatinous cube, for instance)
c. The enemy must not have an anti-backstab innate ability (like ettins)
d. You need a one handed weapon readied and nothing in the other hand (ie no shield) even IF you are a dual/multi class.
e. You have to wear either no armor, leather armor, or studded leather. Or Elfin Chain Mail.

If any of these aren't passed, you just attack from behind, no backstab.

Now (e) is the thing I'm posting about today. In Curse of the Azure Bonds. There's an Elfin Chainmail in the game, and you get it early. Nifty, but it's not magical, and the Bracers are better. I figured that the Bracers are superior not just because of the AC improvement, but they are even lighter.

Well attack after attack happened with no backstab, and I tried unequipping the bracers. Bingo. That cultist gets a back full of iron.

This make no sense to me. As a vet of every single D&D ruleset there has been, I understand why the strict rules are in place for a backstab: it's a strategic thing that must be carefully planned, and you need to have the thief completely mobile and unencumbered by gear to do it properly. But this is crazy: a bracer is just armor for your forearms. If shouldn't count as awkward and heavy as chainmail or better.
Due to the way HP gains work, it's generally best to start in a high HP class like Fighter and change to a lower HP class, rather than the other way around. (I consider 7 to be a good level because that's when you get an extra half attack, though 9 gives you more HP and still lets you get an extra HP roll when you reach level 10 as a thief or mage.) This is, of course, assuming you want to make sure the character remains useful for a bigger portion of the game as opposed to looking only at the long run (in which case the ideal level to dual-class in SSI games that support it is one level before the target class's level cap).

Then again, I did once watch a Baldur's Gate 2 speedrun where the PC started out as a mage and then changed to thief; not an "optimal" choice, but probably done because BG2 doesn't give you spells at level up for whatever reason (unless you're a Sorcerer, who can't dual class in BG2), but does let you pick a bunch of spells at character creation time. (Becoming a thief allows all the skill points to be put into one skill, so you could, for example, get an incredibly high Pickpocket skill in order to steal items to sell, as there's a point where you must have a certain amount of gold to progress.)
avatar
evilwillhunting: For instance, do you want a dual class Mage-Fighter? Sure, it's neat to have a mage with 90 hitpoints, but you need to take off that armor before you can cast anything. Which leaves you open to an attack that round.
In the Gold Box games, I believe that doing Ranger->Mage will allow you to cast spells in armor after class change.
avatar
evilwillhunting: This make no sense to me. As a vet of every single D&D ruleset there has been, I understand why the strict rules are in place for a backstab: it's a strategic thing that must be carefully planned, and you need to have the thief completely mobile and unencumbered by gear to do it properly. But this is crazy: a bracer is just armor for your forearms. If shouldn't count as awkward and heavy as chainmail or better.
I'm curious: What do you think of the 3e Sneak Attack rules? Do you like what 3e did, or do you prefer the old backstab mechanics?

(By the way, speaking of the dual-class mechanic, I note that many earlier CRPGs, including Wizardry, Bard's Tale, and even Dragon Quest 3, use a similar style of multt-classing, except that you don't need to exceed your previous level to regain your abilities, but the only abilities you keep from your previous classes are your spells and HP (well, DQ3 has you leep half your stats).)
Post edited May 01, 2022 by dtgreene
The rules are not consistent.
In PoR you need two other attacks before you can backstab, in the rest of the games one is enough. And the target must of course not get a turn in the meantime.
I don't remember how it was in the GB games, but in FRUA you can backstab with Plate armour, and even backstab Gelatinous Cubes.
In any cast using a Shield should not preclude you from backstabbing. You just need a weapon that a Thief can use. So a Cleric/Thief can't backstab with a Mace, for example.

As for Fighter/Mages, they can cast with Bracers equipped. Ranger/Mages are a better choice, since they can cast spells in metal armour.
Discovery: the game WILL let you backstab with bracers IF you ready leather armor of some kind.

It disregards the leather armor of course and goes with the bracers AC, but you need to actively be wearing a backstab-compliant armor as well as the bracers to get the backstab ability.

Which makes little sense, frankly.
avatar
evilwillhunting: Discovery: the game WILL let you backstab with bracers IF you ready leather armor of some kind.

It disregards the leather armor of course and goes with the bracers AC, but you need to actively be wearing a backstab-compliant armor as well as the bracers to get the backstab ability.

Which makes little sense, frankly.
So, you're saying that:
* Leather armor alone: Yes backatab.
* Bracers alone: No backstab.
* Leather armor + bracers: Yes backstab. (?)

If you're wearing neither leather armor nor bracers, can you backstab? (That is, can you backstab without armor if you're not wearing bracers?)
avatar
evilwillhunting: Dual Class is a tricky affair with 1e D&D. Sure, you can manage to multi-class a human with it in a roundabout way, but the class equipment restrictions usually are in play.

For instance, do you want a dual class Mage-Fighter? Sure, it's neat to have a mage with 90 hitpoints, but you need to take off that armor before you can cast anything. Which leaves you open to an attack that round.

But anyhoo, the point is, I decided to dual class my Thief, Cutty, into a Fighter, at level 9.

My reasoning here was, I could get that nifty backstab perk in combat, which sometimes makes all the difference, and he wouldn't be too squishy and would have a decent enough THAC0. Plus, once I get to 9th level, I can start getting those sweet d10 hitpoints!

Well, the jokes on me on two fronts....
1. A fighter stops getting that d10 roll on his hitpoints at level 10, so it really didn't make my hitpoints much better.

2. The backstab mechanic is really picky....
a. You need to be behind the foe (ie hes getting attacked at least twice from the opposite direction)
b. The thing needs to have a back per se (you can't backstab a gelatinous cube, for instance)
c. The enemy must not have an anti-backstab innate ability (like ettins)
d. You need a one handed weapon readied and nothing in the other hand (ie no shield) even IF you are a dual/multi class.
e. You have to wear either no armor, leather armor, or studded leather. Or Elfin Chain Mail.

If any of these aren't passed, you just attack from behind, no backstab.

Now (e) is the thing I'm posting about today. In Curse of the Azure Bonds. There's an Elfin Chainmail in the game, and you get it early. Nifty, but it's not magical, and the Bracers are better. I figured that the Bracers are superior not just because of the AC improvement, but they are even lighter.

Well attack after attack happened with no backstab, and I tried unequipping the bracers. Bingo. That cultist gets a back full of iron.

This make no sense to me. As a vet of every single D&D ruleset there has been, I understand why the strict rules are in place for a backstab: it's a strategic thing that must be carefully planned, and you need to have the thief completely mobile and unencumbered by gear to do it properly. But this is crazy: a bracer is just armor for your forearms. If shouldn't count as awkward and heavy as chainmail or better.
That's what my thief is doing wrong. He has a shield equiped. Duh. Thank you very much for this helpful post. It serves me right for not reading the manual.