I just completed Curse of the Azure Bonds. Great game btw. I'm now looking forward to Secret of the Silver Blades. My party from Curse is as follows:

Paladin
Human Ranger
Elf Fighter/Thief
Human Cleric
Elf Fighter/Magic User
Human Mage

So I'm wondering if I should try and transfer some of my characters over or if I should start from scratch? I know my elf F/M and F/T are probably useless at this point. Should I dual class them instead? Maybe make my fighter/thief a dwarf instead? And recommendations appreciated.

Some of the charm of these games is to take a party of lvl 1 characters who barely survive against kobolds, and take them all the way to all powerful characters who can challenge demi-gods.
Of your character the Elf Figher/Mage will be the weakest link, since he will not be able to develop as Fighter. So I'd consider replacing him with a Human Ranger who will later be dualed to mage. A Ranger/Mage is overall the most powerful character in the long run. Last time I played Pools of Darkness my Ranger/Mage was Last Man Standing after the final battles, thanks to being able to cast protection spells like Mirror Image.

Petrus,

You're always there with good advice. I appreciate it sir. If I make a new Ranger in SotSB, when should I dual him? Immediately? Okay so my party will look like this:

Paladin - Transfer
Elf Fighter/Thief - Should I change over to a dwarf? I always like the extra dexterity with elf.
Human Cleric - Transfer
Human Ranger - Transfer
Human Mage - Transfer
Human Ranger/Mage

I'd dual him once he reaches lvl 14, which is when he gets 2 attacks per round.

Elf or Dwarf, it's mostly a matter of taste and play style. I prefer the Dwarf (or Half-Elf) over the Elf since I play the game Iron Man Light, so I don't need to worry about being able to resurrect my F/T if he dies. In some of the GB games Elves can't be resurrected.

I recommend choosing the party which you will take into Pools of Darkness now. PoD is quite difficult with a freshly created party.

Do your characters have maxed stats and HP and which level are they ?

Definitely get rid of your Elf Fighter/Magic User, level 11 is not enough to feel useful throughout the whole game.

Your Elf Fighter/Thief isn't great either. Compared to a dwarf or half-elf fighter/thief he looses only a few hitpoints for his extra dexterity but it might get problematic if the character with the least hitpoints has a race which cannot be resurrected.
Dwarf fighter/thief or a human fighter dualed to thief at level 9 for lots of hitpoints might be better choices.

Paladins and ranger can be both dualclassed to mage, paladins get the second attack per round at level 13, Rangers at level 15. If you dual your cleric to mage you could dual one of them to cleric.
Your pure class mage is acceptable if (s)he has 18 dex, but a dualclass will have better armor, better attack and more hitpoints.


If you only want to change one character replace the fighter/mage with a human ranger to be dualed at level 10 to mage, the games should still be doable this way but will be quite hard.
With more dualclassing you'll have an easier time.

As always, thank you again for the excellent feedback Petrus and K. Another question: Do the races get all the bonuses that are listed in the adventurer's journal? For example, Dwarves are resistant to poison and magic and get bonuses to attacking and dodging giant-sized creatures.

On the party, am I better off having 2 fighter(or ranger)/magic users as opposed to having 1 fighter/magic user and 1 single class magic user? I'm just thinking about Kmonster's point here. My single class mage always feels like my weakest and most powerful character at the same time depending on the situation. Would dual class for both be a better option? I'm not normally a dual classing fan at least in the Infinity engine games but I'm not sure here. It sounds like I basically dual them right away. Would they get the fighter levels back pretty quick or would take most of the game?

Last one...Would a dual class fighter-thief be better than a multi class? Say a fighter 9/ Thief X?

Yes, the racial bonuses do apply in my experience.

As for 2 duals versus 1 dual+1 single class, it's really a matter of taste.
I prefer the mix, since I want one caster to be as high level as possible, to be able to get high level spells ASAP, do as much damage as possible, and be more effective against magic resistane enemies. While the other is more geared towards buffing, protections and disabling (like Hold Monster) spells.

A dual class F/T is more powerful in the long run, but it also means an all Human party, and not having a Thief for a long period of the game. Again, a matter of taste.

Well it looks like characters start at basically 8th level if they're created from scratch. Is there much of a difference between dualing at level 8,9,or 10. I'm trying to understand dualing a bit more. I know fighters, for example, get their extra attack at level 13. Also, do dwarves get a +5 bonus to HP with a 19 constitution? I created a new dwarf fighter 7/thief 8 and he maxes out at 84 HP. I'm trying to figure out the math for that number.

I believe that 19 Con indeed gives you +5 HP/level. From what i have read, apparently 20 CON, if you manage to obtain it, gives you slow HP regen. (This mechanic is unlikely to be encountered in a cRPG other than the 2 (3 if you count the MMO) Dark Sun games, but it is implemented.

It seems your Dwarf gets 5 * 7 (fighter levels) + 3 * 8 (thief levels) + 5 * 7 (Con bonus) = 35 + 24 + 35 = 84 HP. In other words, the game seems to be giving full CON bonus for fighter levels and none for thief levels (not even the 8th level).

Forgive me for not quite understanding as math is, and will always be, my worst subject. :) I get 7 HP per level for fighter and 4 HP per level for thief correct?

Fighter 10hp+5/2 = 7 (rounded down?)
Thief 6hp+2/2 = 4 (Only 2 hp bonus on the thief levels)

Fighter 7x7 = 49
Thief 4x8 = 32

Comes out to 81. I guess the 19 Con bonus of 5 is throwing me off somewhere. So I didn't quite understand how you did your math. Again I'm sorry for my lack of intelligence here.

In my math, I considered the HP from CON to be separate from the HP from your class.

Also, I believe the "Only 2 hp bonus on the thief levels" doesn't actually apply, at least not in the case of character creation; it seems that you are getting 5 HP from CON for each fighter level and none for each thief level.

Note that level up HP gains might not work the same way as starting HP.

One other data point might be useful; what is the fewest HP you can start the character with (assuming same CON)?

At level 9, your THAC0 improves by 2. (Note that, unlike in the 2e games, your THAC0 improves every other level) You also gain an extra hit dice.

At level 10, all you gain is 3 hit points. Note that, if you change to Thief or Mage, you will actually end up with, on average (and assuming 15+ CON) fewer HP in the end, and at 16+ CON, you are guaranteed not to have more HP and could have fewer HP instead. In other words, level 10 is a terrible level to dual class.

Levels 11, 13, and 15 give THAC0 improvements.

It's also worth noting that the XP needed to advance from level 9 to 10 as a Fighter is the same (- 1 point) as the XP needed to advance from 1 to 10 as a mage.

Note that Rangers get to roll HP at level 10, so the level 10 issue doesn't apply there. Also, Rangers need fewer XP to reach level 10 than fighters. (This is probably not what you were expecting.)

From a dual-classing standpoint, Paladin can replace Fighter, though you will need to get more XP before dual-classing.

Note that, unless you are changing to Thief, if you dual-class at level 15, you will never regain your former abilities in SotSB. I only recommend doing this if you are training the character for transfer to Pools of Darkness; the character will be underpowered for the SotSB endgame, but if you get enough XP to reach level 16, can immediately level up and regain abilities in PoD, even before the game really starts.

Interesting. Thanks for the breakdown. Something else odd that I don't understand is I dualed my fighter over to magic user at level 9. When I earned my 2nd level in magic user my HP stayed the same. No increase whatsoever. Does that make any sense to you?

I'm just trying to make sure everyone gets maximum legit HP at level up. Multi class and dual class seem to confuse me. Using gold box companion I'm trying to give my dual class fighter/magic user the same XP that my previous elf fighter/magic user had in Curse.

HP works differently for dual class characters. Specifically, you do not gain any HP at level up until you surpass your former level. Therefore, your dual class fighter/magic-user will not gain any more HP until reaching level 10, at which point she will gain HP as a magic-user. This means that she will game 1d4+CON bonus (max 1d4+2) at levels 10 and 11, and 1 per level afterwords.

It is therefore best, when dual-classing, to go from a high HP class to a low HP class. Dual classing this way usually gives you more HP in the long run if you wait. (But see below for an example of an exception to the rule.)

Note that, if you had dualed at level 10, you would have gained 3 HP for fighter level 10, and would not have gained any for magic-user level 10, resulting in fewer HP. (1e/2e AD&D is strange sometimes, and this is one of those cases.)

The 84 HP maximum for a freshly created dwarf fighter 7/ thief 8 with 19 con in SotSB are calculated this way:

7*15 (fighter 7 with 19 con)/2 + 8*8 (thief 8 with 16 con)/2 = 52.5 + 32 = 84.5 rounded down to 84.
For reaching fighter 8 and 9 this character will get up to 7 HP (15/2 rounded down), for reaching thief 9 and 10 up to 4.
Afterwards each level up will yield 1 HP.

So a total of 114 HP is possible for fighter 9/thief 18 multiclass.

Human fighter 9/thief 18 with 18 con can have up to 9*14+8+8*2=150 HP at fighter 9/thief 18 dualclass.

But since the dualclass levels twice as fast the gap will be even wider, the multiclass gets +1 HP every 440,000 XP, the dualclass +2 HP every 220,000 XP.

Dualclass will need 6,850,000 XP for reaching fighter 9/thief 40 with 194 HP.
The multiclass dwarf fighter/thief will need 7,040,000 XP for reaching fighter 9/thief 26 with 122 HP.

So the dualclass gets more HP while the dwarf gets racial bonuses, you also get a bonus at mining in SotSB if you have a dwarf in the party. Attack power on the long run is about equal.

A dualclassed fighter 13/thief will have 2 instead of 1.5 attacks per round and +2 bonus to hit compared to those but you'll have to wait a long time until you get thieving abilities and a long dualing period, there are trapped chests with useful content which is gone if you can't disarm them and saving them for much later is annoying.



Fighters/Paladins get +1/2 melee attack at level 7 and and another +1/2 at level 13.
Rangers get +1/2 at level 8 and 15.

Even if you dualclass at level 8 or so you still get the main benefits, lots of bonus HP and the abilty to use better weapons and armor.

Dualclassing to mage at level 9 yields the most HP for fighter/paladin/cleric, level 10 for dualclassing from ranger/thief to mage.

If you create a new character it's not worth waiting longer for additional benefits, casting level is most important for mages.


Some enjoy having pure classes with their strengths and weaknesses, others prefer the easier games you get with dualclasses.
The pregenerated party for PoD has 2 characters dualclassed to mage but you can beat the games without dualclasses.