I didnt like it. It was too hard, there was no map in any of the dungeons. I think that 2nd one gives me very little reason to keep playing. How are you supposed to beat 1st person rpg without a map system?

I would say that Etrian Odyssey is better than this game as you can find where you are going. But thats like saying crap instead of shit.

I find these games to be boring because of the fact that there is no story and without a solid story, I cannot be bought.

First of all, there is a map. You just have to use an item or spell to open it. Magic Maps only cost 10 each. Furthermore, you can get a reusable map relatively early that has only a low chance of breaking, and furthermore, when it breaks, you can repair it with a fifth level alchemist spell.

With regard to story, I find that story gets into the way of actual gameplay. Remember, Super Mario Bros. (NES) became famous even without a story (at least more than an excuse plot). Without a story, I can jump into the game and start having fun right away. With a story, I have to wait for cutscenes and dialogue before I can start to have fun. In other words, story wastes my time.

I should also point out that many old first person RPGs lacked a map system, and yet people have still managed to beat them. Remember, you can draw your own maps on graph paper (and people actually did that back in the day).

I remember playing 1st person shooter, Zero Tolerance, on Sega. I was covering that part of TV, which had map, with piece of paper, as it was defeating the sense of exploration, showing place, where I've never been. But I am also such person, that I can be put in middle of any dungeon in the game I played, and I will find my way out without any use of map.

Total lack of automap is bad, but Elminage provides it. It provides Magic Map (and later - its multi-use upgrade) and Save/Reload mechanism if you don't like 1-time maps. It provides spell Dioseed to see the map. You don't have to always have map at your eyes.

Focus on story at a cost of gameplay became disturbing at the end of 90s. Story is fine but it isn't CRPG-defining element. As Carmak said: "Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there , but it's not that important." Story is mandatory element of visual games and non-combat adventure games. I am glad we got some games recently, which have more focus on gameplay. Last good PC dungeon crawler was Demise, and it certainly was Demise of PC dungeon crawlers up until Elminage Gothic port (I don't count real-time games with engine exploits and MM X failed all expectations).

Sometimes I feel envy to console gamers (especially in Japan): they have 5 Elminage games, 3 Class of Heroes games, 4 (5 already?) Etrian Odyssey games, Unchained Blades, etc., etc., while PC gamers got nothing for over decade and I can see why. For some reason reception of such games on PC is bad. When you look on most of so-called CRPGs nowadays, they have automaps for linear dungeons and twitch-based gameplay, sadly it looks to be more popular than actual dungeons, where you can actually get lost, and where combat outcome is based on your characters' skills/stats and not on your dexterity skills. Graph paper maps, pffft, I have all maps in my head :P

Edit: How is Lords of Xulima progress going?:)

Even with all that in place. Do you REALLY REALLY think there will be people spending 60 fucking hours doing the same goddamn thing over and over again. I admit that most rpgs have you doing the same things sometimes, but 60 hours of nothing and 30 hours of grinding sounds more like torture to me.

I get surprised to see some people spending hours upon hours in first-person shooters, in DOTAs and such. They are basically doing all the same thing each time. But I don't say that they are enjoying their games wrong. And there are people who enjoy dungeon crawlers, spending many hours in them, trying different classes, exploring, min-maxing, just messing around and such.

I also always facepalm when people tell others how they should enjoy the games and that their idea of fun is wrong. You don't like the genre, fine. I don't like sport simulators, but I am not coming to their forums to bash these simulators just because I don't like that genre.

Haven't gotten around to starting it for real yet. (I don't count the run where I took the pre-made party to fight the guards just to make sure the game ran fine on my system.)

Of course, I also decided to buy Pier Solar, which is a very different sort of RPG. I haven't seriously started it, but I did turn it on just to make sure it works and get the basic idea of the gameplay. (The Gather system seems like it might be interesting, and there is an option to change the encounter rate.)

I probably won't start a game for real until Saturday. (Tomorrow I have a concert in the evening.)

I played the game 4 times in total lol. once on psp, once on pc(beta) and twice on 3ds. it's just that good lol.

Never Heard of Etrian Odyssey. Googling it, looks like there's 1-4 and some extensions/spin-off.

Which one is a good one to start and where can they be obtained? Not Gog I suppose...

Oh and it looks like they're all 3ds/Nintendo... Not PC games right? That's unfortunate.

Thanks!

First games in series were made for Nintendo DS and later games - for Nintendo 3DS. 1st is most classic as far as it goes - 2nd+ games have quite exotic classes and more streamlined gameplay. Be aware that you can save only in towns (why would they do such a thing for handheld??), at least in first couple games in the series. Being DS game, it has such a thing as double-screen (being also a touch screen on 3DS) and requirement to use stylus, which might be huge turn-off for many people (for me it is). Other that that, Etrian Odyssey is quite a decent game.

You can look for Elminage Original for PSP/PS Vita. It is quite different from Gothic. "Open world dungeon crawler" surely might sound like oxymoron, but Elminage Original is exactly such a game - most of the game is open to you after first quest. Many "dungeons" in Elminage Original are also not really dungeons, but forests, swamps, mountains.

On your edit: closest games to Elminage on GOG: Wizardry VI, VII and Might and Magic 6-pack (first 5 games). Most of such dungeon crawlers are now on consoles (even Elminage Gothic is originally a PSP game), so the choice for PC is highly limited.

Thanks Sarisio,

I already played all Wiz and M&Magic games... Great games!

I really enjoyed Wiz 8 but also 6. 7 was just too long for me.

Maybe one day we'll see a port of Etrian odyssey for PC... I don't have any gaming only hardware, so for me, it has to run on a PC or a MAC.

Cheers!

I don't really like that you have to draw the maps yourself in Etrian's Odyssey. Apart from the fact that I don't like playing on handhelds due to small screen and back problems.

I enjoyed Etrian Odyssey 1 and 3. (I haven't played any later entries in the series because they were released on a region locked system with DRM-ed digital downloads.)

Etrian Odyssey 2, however, had some rather serious balance problems. Here are some of the problems with the game:
1. Game overly favors an offensive strategy. Powerful attacks tend to kill enemies (including bosses) too fast. In return, bosses are generally ridiculously deadly, leaving no room for slower strategies.
2. Your weapon has a major effect on initiative. So major, in fact, that it is more important than your class, even if you are not attacking with it. This results in Dark Hunters outspeeding Survivalists (Survivalists are supposed to be the fastest class and are in EO1) as well as War Magi outspeeding Medics (making the Medic class, which has higher AGI, rather pointless).
3. Some skills are overpowered. For instance, Revenge (more damage when low on HP) is so powerful it can kill most bosses in one or two casts. There are 3 Force skills that reliably make the enemy unable to hurt you. (IMO, Force skills should have been weaker but Force should have charged faster.)
4. If you actually try to use a more defensive strategy, the game punishes you for it. The second boss, for example, has an attack that dispels your party and does large damage to the entire party, which is rather unfair to players who like the Troubadour (who the developers were not kind to; they took away the fun-to-use "Healing" song).
5. In the Japanese version, many of the skills were bugged to the point of being useless. One Ronin skill was particularly bad: Simply having the skill (it's a passive) would reduce your accuracy and provide *no* benefit.

Simple: Memorize the dungeon layout in your head.

The more often you venture into a dungeon the more you will remember the layout and the easier it will become to take the right path directly.

How do you play 3DS version? 3DS is region-locked and Elminage haven't been translated so far.

Well, you could do the following:
1. Import a 3DS from Japan. This gets you around the region lock.
2. Import the game from Japan. There isn't anything preventing you from importing the physical game.
3. Play the game. Yes, you might not understand the language (though it helps if you learn to read katakana), but you can still play the game in the original Japanese.

Of note, I just played through part of Wizardry Summoner (GBA) in Japanese. I have just abandoned that game, not because of the game being in Japanese, but rather because of the game not giving enough experience points. See my topic in the Wizardry sub-forum for some more details.