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mystikmind2000: I have tried, oh God have i tried to make 'something', 'anything' of a wizard but they steadfastly refuse. Even at high levels in the end it all comes down to this silly little thing pee shooting tiny little useless fireballs. It's so far beneath what other leaders are doing by that level, i mean honestly, there just so useless.
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DarrkPhoenix: Wizards can be one of the best heroes for taking out lairs and opponents that would otherwise mean at least some units lost for other heroes. They are also incredibly versatile if you choose their spells right, with only a few enemy types they have trouble with (dragons being the main one, although even that is manageable if you have a spider or two in your army).

Cloud of Terror can neutralize even the strongest units in one shot- the normally powerful Clan of Giants guard can be reduced to nothing but a panicked mob waiting to be picked off before they can even act.

Mass Suicide, Firestorm, and White Magic are all incredibly powerful offensive spells that can wipe out or severely weaken most of the enemy army in a single shot.

Summon Phoenix or Dragon Form lets you call up an extra lvl 4 unit to help deal with magic immune creatures like golems and dragons.

Word of Ice lets you completely immobilize any non-magic immune creature for a large number of rounds, and a wizard casting this spell is pretty much the only way any hero can neutralize enemy phoenixes in a single round.

Fireball and Lightning are nice spammable damage spells that you can load up on and which remain useful even through the late game.

And even simple spells like Inspiration can be used to quickly restore the wizard's stamina in a single shot (as blasting off two high-level spells each round can drain it pretty quick).

Now, a really well-geared solo warrior may be a bit stronger in the very late game (provided they have poison immunity), but aside from that I'd consider wizards to be the strongest heroes once they're leveled past 20 and loaded up with a good selection of spells. Crank up their initiative so they get the first turn and most battles are over before they even begin.
Ah, that's probably why i see wizards as so useless,, because i'm already running around with a level 30 warrior by the time i can afford the fourth hero
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mystikmind2000: Ah, that's probably why i see wizards as so useless,, because i'm already running around with a level 30 warrior by the time i can afford the fourth hero
Yeah, try to level up a wizard in the late-game and they'll seem incredibly underwhelming. You pretty much need to get them started as a first or second hero so they'll have plenty of time to level up, as they don't really shine until they hit level 20 and can start firing off two spells each round. I personally prefer to use a wizard as my second hero (with a scout being my first), as they can often make for a slow start if chosen as the first hero, due to needing to spend money on some spell buildings before they can make much of a contribution to a fight (while heroes like the scout and warrior can be out there making a major contribution right from the start).
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mystikmind2000: Ah, that's probably why i see wizards as so useless,, because i'm already running around with a level 30 warrior by the time i can afford the fourth hero
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DarrkPhoenix: Yeah, try to level up a wizard in the late-game and they'll seem incredibly underwhelming. You pretty much need to get them started as a first or second hero so they'll have plenty of time to level up, as they don't really shine until they hit level 20 and can start firing off two spells each round. I personally prefer to use a wizard as my second hero (with a scout being my first), as they can often make for a slow start if chosen as the first hero, due to needing to spend money on some spell buildings before they can make much of a contribution to a fight (while heroes like the scout and warrior can be out there making a major contribution right from the start).
I like Scouts but I have come to learn of their critical weakness in the sense that if the scout throws a spell, he has to sacrifice a precious offensive move to do it. This disadvantage with magic continues on through all hero levels. And to make things worse, much worse, Scout battles are mostly very time critical! On the other hand Warriors and Commanders usually always have plenty of non critical moves to spare for spells and their battles more often than not, won't be very time critical.
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mystikmind2000: I like Scouts but I have come to learn of their critical weakness in the sense that if the scout throws a spell, he has to sacrifice a precious offensive move to do it. This disadvantage with magic continues on through all hero levels. And to make things worse, much worse, Scout battles are mostly very time critical! On the other hand Warriors and Commanders usually always have plenty of non critical moves to spare for spells and their battles more often than not, won't be very time critical.
I like scouts as a first hero because they're great for the early game- get a decent bow (usually pretty easy) and the scout can carry most early battles himself as long as you have some swordies or barbs to keep enemies off him. Late game scout/archer definitely starts to fall behind other heroes in terms of power (and being forced to choose between putting down a single powerful enemy or firing off a useful spell, as you mentioned), although by that point I usually have a wizard and a warrior leveled and geared to take over the tougher battles.
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mystikmind2000: I like Scouts but I have come to learn of their critical weakness in the sense that if the scout throws a spell, he has to sacrifice a precious offensive move to do it. This disadvantage with magic continues on through all hero levels. And to make things worse, much worse, Scout battles are mostly very time critical! On the other hand Warriors and Commanders usually always have plenty of non critical moves to spare for spells and their battles more often than not, won't be very time critical.
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DarrkPhoenix: I like scouts as a first hero because they're great for the early game- get a decent bow (usually pretty easy) and the scout can carry most early battles himself as long as you have some swordies or barbs to keep enemies off him. Late game scout/archer definitely starts to fall behind other heroes in terms of power (and being forced to choose between putting down a single powerful enemy or firing off a useful spell, as you mentioned), although by that point I usually have a wizard and a warrior leveled and geared to take over the tougher battles.
So a scout would be better off upgraded for exploration and looting rather than combat?
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mystikmind2000: So a scout would be better off upgraded for exploration and looting rather than combat?
Scout is great for exploration even without being specifically geared for it, and should still be upgraded for combat. It's mainly his role in the overall army that should change as the game progresses. Early game the scout makes a great main hero- capturing provinces, clearing lairs, etc. Once you get to ring 4 provinces, though, you may start running into some things that even a high-level scout has some trouble tackling (or at least has trouble tackling without losing some veteran units). At this point I find a wizard (second hero) and warrior (third hero) are getting to the point of being quite effective, and can take over the scout's previous job. The scout can then be re-purposed for running down enemy heroes (great for this due to his high movement and ability to one-shot many heroes), and putting out any fires that require quickly running off to various provinces.

Also, it's usually not a good use of any hero to just park them and let them explore (unless you've already cleared all visible lairs suitable for the hero and there aren't any new provinces the hero is suitable for capturing).
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mystikmind2000: So a scout would be better off upgraded for exploration and looting rather than combat?
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DarrkPhoenix: Scout is great for exploration even without being specifically geared for it, and should still be upgraded for combat. It's mainly his role in the overall army that should change as the game progresses. Early game the scout makes a great main hero- capturing provinces, clearing lairs, etc. Once you get to ring 4 provinces, though, you may start running into some things that even a high-level scout has some trouble tackling (or at least has trouble tackling without losing some veteran units). At this point I find a wizard (second hero) and warrior (third hero) are getting to the point of being quite effective, and can take over the scout's previous job. The scout can then be re-purposed for running down enemy heroes (great for this due to his high movement and ability to one-shot many heroes), and putting out any fires that require quickly running off to various provinces.

Also, it's usually not a good use of any hero to just park them and let them explore (unless you've already cleared all visible lairs suitable for the hero and there aren't any new provinces the hero is suitable for capturing).
Good tip, thanks.

What is 'putting out fires'? Once a territory rebels, i just leave it unless it has a resource i need. I may use a rebelling territory later on for experience.
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mystikmind2000: What is 'putting out fires'? Once a territory rebels, i just leave it unless it has a resource i need. I may use a rebelling territory later on for experience.
Re-capturing provinces that have been invaded by neighboring neutral provinces (orcs, barbarians, undead), and the occasional event where you're given warning that something is going to happen in a certain province (usually involving having to fight some enemy then getting a reward if victorious) and it's better for a hero to be there to handle it than to just rely on the province guard.

These things tend to be a pretty minor use of a scout's time in the late game, though, since by then it's not uncommon to be waging a war on several fronts with plenty of enemy heroes that need to be run down.
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mystikmind2000: What is 'putting out fires'? Once a territory rebels, i just leave it unless it has a resource i need. I may use a rebelling territory later on for experience.
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DarrkPhoenix: Re-capturing provinces that have been invaded by neighboring neutral provinces (orcs, barbarians, undead), and the occasional event where you're given warning that something is going to happen in a certain province (usually involving having to fight some enemy then getting a reward if victorious) and it's better for a hero to be there to handle it than to just rely on the province guard.

These things tend to be a pretty minor use of a scout's time in the late game, though, since by then it's not uncommon to be waging a war on several fronts with plenty of enemy heroes that need to be run down.
I was hoping you would tell me some trick that hero's can do to calm down a territory instead of just waiting for it to rebel.

So far i have learnt that a certain number of territories have to get rebellious for no apparent reason, and i have learn't it is better to just let them go..... Then retake them when i have some very negative guards and buildings to post there and give them a 'real' reason to be upset!
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mystikmind2000: I was hoping you would tell me some trick that hero's can do to calm down a territory instead of just waiting for it to rebel.

So far i have learnt that a certain number of territories have to get rebellious for no apparent reason, and i have learn't it is better to just let them go..... Then retake them when i have some very negative guards and buildings to post there and give them a 'real' reason to be upset!
There are plenty of things that can be done to deal with unhappy provinces, although nothing that heroes can do (other than suppressing rebellions, which just makes the province more unhappy). Several types of guards reduce unhappiness (Brotherhood of Light is a nice cheap one for the early game), and several rituals can reduce unhappiness temporarily, which can give provinces time to stabilize after initially being captured. For the mid and late game there are several buildings that can be constructed in provinces that reduce unhappiness. With all these things available province unhappiness should only be an issue for the early game when your resources and options are limited (and even then only for certain troublesome races, like dwarves).
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mystikmind2000: I was hoping you would tell me some trick that hero's can do to calm down a territory instead of just waiting for it to rebel.
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DarrkPhoenix: There are plenty of things that can be done to deal with unhappy provinces. Several types of guards reduce unhappiness (Brotherhood of Light is a nice cheap one for the early game), and several rituals can reduce unhappiness temporarily, which can give provinces time to stabilize after initially being captured. For the mid and late game there are several buildings that can be constructed in provinces that reduce unhappiness. With all these things available province unhappiness should only be an issue for the early game when your resources and options are limited (and even then only for certain troublesome races, like dwarves).
Yea it's really sad how much Dwarfs always rebel. Even if your "Good" it doesn't seem to help you with them and it's quite annoying to have to constantly recapture their provinces, as they usually have Iron/Marble/Mithril that it's best to keep hold of. I hate to waste my Alliance with them as Elves are the clear choice you want.
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EvilLoynis: Yea it's really sad how much Dwarfs always rebel. Even if your "Good" it doesn't seem to help you with them and it's quite annoying to have to constantly recapture their provinces, as they usually have Iron/Marble/Mithril that it's best to keep hold of. I hate to waste my Alliance with them as Elves are the clear choice you want.
Yeah, that's why I always save my Ancient Shrine schematics for key dwarven provinces. The +3 to mood tends to solve the problem in one shot. Otherwise in the early game Brotherhood of Light + Extravaganza ritual will decrease the unhappiness enough that the province won't rebel before it stabilizes. The main thing is to keep the province from ever rebelling in the first place, because if it does then regardless of whether you put down the rebellion or recapture the province it drops the mood even further, so you're dealing with -4 or -5 instead of the -3 that dwarves usually start at, so you've got a much bigger hole to dig yourself out of before the province is stable.
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mystikmind2000: So a scout would be better off upgraded for exploration and looting rather than combat?
I try to get a Scout to level 10 as my second hero. Then with a Crossbow he'll be able to safely take down Dragons if you place slingers around him as a buffer. If he doesn't have enough stamina or damage yet, take Monks with you, so they can boost his stamina. Without monks he might have to level more or have a better crossbow.
Dragon loot will be a big boon. Warriors and Wizards won't be able to safely kill dragons this early in the game.
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mystikmind2000: So a scout would be better off upgraded for exploration and looting rather than combat?
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jamotide: I try to get a Scout to level 10 as my second hero. Then with a Crossbow he'll be able to safely take down Dragons if you place slingers around him as a buffer. If he doesn't have enough stamina or damage yet, take Monks with you, so they can boost his stamina. Without monks he might have to level more or have a better crossbow.
Dragon loot will be a big boon. Warriors and Wizards won't be able to safely kill dragons this early in the game.
I had a question about the Armor Piercing and Piercing Shot abilities. If your Hero or Soldier has both which is applied first? I hope that Armor Piercing applies first ofc but have not really tested as it normally only matters with T3/4 guys.

Thanks for posting this as it made me look closer at the Dragon and his stats. I had not realized he only had 10 Ranged Defense before. His 10 normal Defense may seem small but not when you have to deal with his 35 Counter attack sigh.

Also I cannot see a L10 Archer truly taking out a Dragon without a Spider and Monk or 2 along to help. 150 HP is quite a lot to take down. Unless ofc he has tons of High end items.

Archer would have around 15 Stamina at level 10. He would also most likely have Archery 3 In battle he would likely DS, DS, AE, DS, DS, AE, DS at best i think. And this is only if his shots were able to do around 15 damage each so that each DS would do ~30 damage. He would only have a max of 6 units to run interference, I think the Dragon would be able to start hitting him with it's ranged attack by it's 3rd-4th turn with nothing to web it.

I think an ideal Level 10 Archer would have the following skills Archery 3, Scouting 2 and the rest in Looting, Mobility and Precise Shot. If you know your going after a dragon asap then Looting 3 would be super helpful. I usually don't worry about the Initiative skill as when you use the drain stamina sabotage you kind of don't want to go first allowing them to gain it back. Later on is ok but early on let them go first I think so they can get into range to die.

However ofc your statement that Archers are the best hero to take a Dragon down earliest is I believe correct. Although Commanders able to have a spider to web and have the rest of it's massive army mob it, is perhaps tied.
Post edited April 16, 2014 by EvilLoynis
You are right, level 10 would be very early, but as the second hero he should have some good items and be able to do it somewhere between 10 and 15. I guess a strategist with crossbowmen would be able to do it,too, but it would be much more costly.
About the question... I am not sure, but it should be fairly easy to test. Just see how much damage a scout with alot of piercing strike does and do the maths. Unfortunately I have no savegame with a scout right now. From memory I would say armor piercing applies first.
Post edited April 16, 2014 by jamotide