I am curious just what would Jeff's games be rated if they were being released mainstream on xbox or wii. I've played Avernum escape the pit and beings of I4-6. theses games make me to believe that he is trying make games that most teens of ages 12-18 can play without parents going "Ew turn that game off. it will ruin your mind. " So I would rate Jeff's games E10 or T. I am I right or am I wrong. Because I'd like to know what Jeff's games might be rated so I can tell anyone else who might be trying to find a huge, harmless, role-playing game on the same level as fallout 3. But isn't aloud to play games like fallout.

I would say that a teen rating is appropriate for the Avernum games. The Geneforge series is full of tough moral decisions with no clear "right" answer (and serious consequences), so that might be more appealing to an older audience. And I haven't played Avadon so I can't comment on that.

To the point of there being no right answer on today's morale standard considering the question is pretty much what side should face genocide as both sides denies others right to exist. That's the weakness of Geneforge series (at least GF3. GF1&2 had bit less bad options.). If GF series is ever remade, I hope jeff adds at least one diplomatic way of solving the conflict.

I seriously doubt if Jeff Vogel is writing for the teen market, especially the "most teens" market. All of his games tend to read more like books than anything you would find on Wii, xBox, or Playstation. Perhaps I'm jaded (and too old), but I can't see my grandkids giving up Mortal Kombat, Assassin's Creed and Dragon Age II (with all of their whirlwinding, body parts flying, and attention disorder play) to sit and read textual descriptions of caves, dungeons, and histories.
Finally, I'd worry/wonder more about any parent who believes an rpg "will ruin your mind" than a kid playing one of Vogel's games, fallout, Baldur's gate, and the Ultima series.

I don't think he is, either, but that doesn't mean his games aren't appropriate for teens to play. Even the original Fallout games had much more graphic violence as well as sexual situations, which led to their Mature ratings from the ESRB. Also they had depictions of drug use which were a big problem in certain territories. I would imagine that Jeff Vogel's games, by contrast, would be deemed appropriate for a Teen rating.

Given that we live in a society that fawns over guns but frowns on sex & drugs, you are probably right...the ESRB would approve.

It is a bit odd that sex and drugs are considered worse than guns. But even without those, I think the original Fallout games may have earned themselves a Mature rating just for the violence... there's some pretty gory stuff in those games.

To tell the truth, I haven't played Fallout in many a year (or perhaps, decade) and I really don't remember anything gory. Then again, I find it difficult to imagine an overview 2D perspective of miniature comic strip animations to be anything remotely lifelike. Current day 3D shooters (or even Doom), yes; but, 2D? no.

IMHO, ESRB (and today's society on a whole) is 'slightly' confused. Violence is shoved down our throats on TV's "news" reports and tsk-tsk'ed in entertainment. Games do not create sociopaths; society does. A game depicting violence, regardless of how graphic, has no potential to kill anyone; a gun does.

Guess I'm essentially saying, I don't care what ESRB or any other 'holier-than-thou' entity says. If my kid or grandkid wants to play a game, I allow it.

Oh, it's gory. Critical hit someone in the head with a sniper rifle and their head pops in a fountain of gore. Unload on someone at close range with a minigun and it basically tears them apart, chunks of flesh flying everywhere before they collapse in a bloody heap. I found it to be far more gory than many (but not all, of course) 3-D games. The 2-D art afforded the artists an opportunity to craft some very graphic death animations. There's even a trait ("bloody mess") you can take on character creation that makes every enemy death happen in the goriest way possible. That's why I like the ESRB system... it just acts as a set of guidelines, but ultimately parents and others can make their own decisions about what games are appropriate, and for whom.

Its not as messy as when I drop the kids off at the pool.

Well, the games are appropriate for teens, but will likely mostly appeal to adults who remember playing this type of game in their youths. I would imagine many of the game's fans are in their 30s and 40s, as the games really hearken back to that era. They are reminiscent of games like Temple of Apshai in the 1980s (in that one most of the descriptions were written in a booklet accompanying the game) but Vogel's descriptions really are like those from the Apshai games.

It is certainly appropriate for teens, though, and there are some out there who do like this type of game with a true role playing experience albeit without fancy graphics or blood everywhere.