It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
Community
Age of Wonders seriesAoW+(390 posts)(390 posts)
(390 posts)
Pages:
1
5
10
11
12
13
14
15
20
26
This is my favourite topic
Posted June 30, 2020
THIS @ IniochReborn! I just read your post and your request for changes based on 1.41 for multiplayer!

We are ALSO willing to offer $50 for these changes to be made! Inioch, I still had your email/paypal from years ago when we played that tournament. I've just sent you $50! Please let And G know that you are now offering $100CAD!

I ESPECIALLY like the Leadership skill also getting +1 DEF/+1 RES/+4MOV...we can use a rule-set to adjust the skill point value of this skill.....even if the +4 MOV part is impossible, the addition of +1 DEF/+1 RES is still awesome! It would make 'Leader' Class Leaders/Heroes possible!

There are some minor things I would like different.....BUT I also know that people arguing over different things = nothing ends up getting done! Your suggestions are close enough, that I am happy! So I have nothing to add to your list of requested changes!


*I like 1.42 for Campaign, but I also agree with Inioch that his requested changes (based on 1.41) will be better for multiplayer.
Posted June 30, 2020
I suspect that And G is a programmer from Switzerland, so a high earner anyway; I doubt we can influence his decision that way, lol. (not that I'd mind chipping in £20 if that's how things are done... but I doubt it).

Now that I think on it more, I agree on city training times being reverted. Given that high-tier units must be more cost-efficient than other units otherwise you might as well make only t1s, high-tier units do need to have their production moderated with training time. Lore-wise, this could reflect the time it takes for a bought dragon to enjoy a large feast, or for an Incarnate to be fully introduced to the mundane world, or for a Nature Elemental to be manifested, a Kharagh trained, etc.

I think the original motivation to make training 1-turn was the idea that the units already exist in the world, so it was thematic change - but on such a mechanic, I think gameplay considerations should be more prominent than those of theme or realism.

I would also like to see all Rebuilder actions have their costs reduced (haven't checked what their current level is). In my view, if it takes more than 10 turns for rebuilding a structure to pay off, then the whole mechanic has effectively been removed from the game, as it becomes more cost-effective to simply train troops and fight for territory, regardless of context. Or even if you do decide to rebuild a city, it just takes forever anyway.

Roads cost 10 gold in the base game - given the overall gold reduction, could we see this reduced to 5 gold or even 4? Because the enemy can use roads, it's quite a niche thing to do as it stands.

On the other hand, Watchtowers will be worth gold because of the general vision reductions to come; in fact, might you reduce their vision to 10 hexes to fit in better with the new normal?

Shipyards - even with ruleset, building a shipyard is then followed by further delay and cost from the actual ships themselves, so it'd be good to see this action cost little too.

Regarding Nodes, isn't choosing 4 spheres of the same element already a good choice to access high-level spells? If anything I would rather see them grant minor income even to people without the same Sphere.

BTW, I like the new stone walls, not sure if anyone commented on that.
Post edited June 30, 2020 by southern
Posted June 30, 2020
Okay, so that means the 3 of us are offering And G a total of $133.60CAD for IniochReborn's requested updates to 1.41.

Hi And G....I'm curious how you came to play AoW and what brought you back to it? It's such a great game....that sadly, the sequels fell far short of.

Hah, every time a new Age of Wonders title comes along, I hold out hopes that it will reclaim it's past glory...only to be disappointed. Well, I didn't hold out much hope for the last game (Age of Wonders: Planetfall).......I mean, Age of Wonders in space = ?!?!?

Hi Southern, I also really like the wall system now. Adds a whole other layer to city planing + tactical battles. Great change!


*I do a lot of mod work for Skyrim on Nexus Mods (Paradoxnrt) and have tens of thousands of users.....and I've never had any offer me $ for custom work! What we are doing (offering And G $$$ up front for some simple updates)......I've never heard of anyone else doing something like this for such an old game! I guess it shows our connections to this game.
Post edited June 30, 2020 by Paradoxnrt
Posted June 30, 2020
sorry, but could you check the tone of your message (esp. * last paragraph)? sound little like salesman talk that mean:
"hey do what we demand, because we will pay you"
I would not be surprise if that aggravate AndG

---

I buy recently some games, just to install for 5 min, but still Im playing AoW1 - its nice fast game without all this city upgrading. And units have interesting skill. And hard counters (walls, water, flyers).

I'm happy to add 20 britsh pound (i would need to figure out the paypal, or I send money to Southerns bank account).

---

as for IniochReborn postulates:

I strongly agree with going back to vanilla production times. As Im playing today some games, t3 is too common (i have multiple 8x stacks), i dont build t1 at all.

I disagree with this:
" Elemental Mana Income: 5-10-20-40 ", 2-5-10-15 work very well.

with +40 (or was it even +50?) if you grab elemental nodes, you are just head & shoulder above opposition. Plus if you manage to just control 2x nodes 40+20=60 , this is so broken. The spell research is too fast. It kill the pacing.
compare it to controlling "special" mines that would grant +40 gold, where rest points grant +5.

unless i dont understand some thing about it.

Rest magic system: mana income from spellcasting, caster points nerf (that was not needed), and spell upkeep... I agree somewhat

For vision reduction:
- builder guild, nodes, mines, ports... vision 6 > 2. Its odd, that you gain more vision as you capture point. And the point is seeing further than your units.
- tower 12 > 8
- city 6 > 4 (if city and structure share same value, then give 2 for all, this would force to have spotting crew in frontier cities)

-units 4. if you want to reduce it to 3, im all for it, im interested a lot how would it unfold. Vision skill would gain a lot on meaning.

-------

stone walls - whats so special about them?
i dont build them. wood is enough to stop lower tier, without siege engine. And serious enemy always bringing flyers, climber etc to overcome the wall. But maybe i need to give it a shoot.
Posted June 30, 2020
Hi Lagi.....my last comment was about how us being willing to pay $$$ for an old game to be updated is something I've never heard anybody do before. I also mentioned how I do a lot of modding work for Skyrim, and I've never been offered $ to do custom work = it shows that AoW is a game we truly love.


As for my 'wow, this is different' comment being 'offensive'....I'm having trouble understanding how you interpreted it that way.
Posted July 01, 2020
avatar
Paradoxnrt: Hi Lagi.....my last comment was about how us being willing to pay $$$ for an old game to be updated is something I've never heard anybody do before. I also mentioned how I do a lot of modding work for Skyrim, and I've never been offered $ to do custom work = it shows that AoW is a game we truly love.

As for my 'wow, this is different' comment being 'offensive'....I'm having trouble understanding how you interpreted it that way.
My bad Paradoxnrt, I over-interpreted.
Posted July 01, 2020
avatar
southern: I suspect that And G is a programmer from Switzerland, so a high earner anyway; I doubt we can influence his decision that way, lol. (not that I'd mind chipping in £20 if that's how things are done... but I doubt it).

Now that I think on it more, I agree on city training times being reverted. Given that high-tier units must be more cost-efficient than other units otherwise you might as well make only t1s, high-tier units do need to have their production moderated with training time. Lore-wise, this could reflect the time it takes for a bought dragon to enjoy a large feast, or for an Incarnate to be fully introduced to the mundane world, or for a Nature Elemental to be manifested, a Kharagh trained, etc.

I think the original motivation to make training 1-turn was the idea that the units already exist in the world, so it was thematic change - but on such a mechanic, I think gameplay considerations should be more prominent than those of theme or realism.

I would also like to see all Rebuilder actions have their costs reduced (haven't checked what their current level is). In my view, if it takes more than 10 turns for rebuilding a structure to pay off, then the whole mechanic has effectively been removed from the game, as it becomes more cost-effective to simply train troops and fight for territory, regardless of context. Or even if you do decide to rebuild a city, it just takes forever anyway.

Roads cost 10 gold in the base game - given the overall gold reduction, could we see this reduced to 5 gold or even 4? Because the enemy can use roads, it's quite a niche thing to do as it stands.

On the other hand, Watchtowers will be worth gold because of the general vision reductions to come; in fact, might you reduce their vision to 10 hexes to fit in better with the new normal?

Shipyards - even with ruleset, building a shipyard is then followed by further delay and cost from the actual ships themselves, so it'd be good to see this action cost little too.

Regarding Nodes, isn't choosing 4 spheres of the same element already a good choice to access high-level spells? If anything I would rather see them grant minor income even to people without the same Sphere.

BTW, I like the new stone walls, not sure if anyone commented on that.
Hey Southern, I just want to formally accept all above changes you mention, except mana, into our proposal. (I'm okay with install times as you prefer them, although I must insist on nodes 5-10-20-40. Everything else I either agree with or accept for the sake of teaming up). I really think a higher value for mana income allows for better scaling of cost, which we can each balance as we see fit.

I think between Southern and I, we can both edit our rulesets in such a way that everyone will be happy, at least until 1.50 which could (likely) be another gamechanger. But that'll be awhile I think.

Lagi, I hope we can convert you to the ways of the higher mana too haha. We'd love to have you on board with us, and surely if I don't get the mana ruleset balance to your liking, then Southern likely will. You could also make a ruleset too, I'd give yours a try (although if I'm being honest I'd probably take any new ideas I like and put them into mine after :P )

Also, stone walls in my opinion are meaningful in tactical combat against human players, and a bit less relevant against AI. They make a big difference in our LAN games, but I can't speak much as to whether they are worth building in PBEM or not.

**edit: Paradoxnrt you already messaged me, but just to confirm to everyone else, yes let's pool our money together.
Post edited July 01, 2020 by IniochReborn
Posted July 01, 2020
avatar
IniochReborn: I must insist on nodes 5-10-20-40. ... I really think a higher value for mana income allows for better scaling of cost, which we can each balance as we see fit.
"better scaling of cost"? please elaborate.

even with current ruleset single Elemental node are fricking powerhouse!

screen with power
its total 33 power point. by replacing 15 => 40 : total 58

how much single elemental node contribute to the total power:

15/33 = 45% XXXXx ooooo
40/58 = 69% XXXXX XXooo

Controlling this single node is "to be or not to be".
You want to take less than 4 sphere? Haha you are silly. And better check map before, because you need to take proper type of magic too!

with 33 research I gain new 1st level spell every second turn - producing single unit take more time than researching spell.


avatar
IniochReborn: Lagi, I hope we can convert you to the ways of the higher mana too haha. We'd love to have you on board with us, and surely if I don't get the mana ruleset balance to your liking, then Southern likely will.
if you said
2-5-10-20 (same scaling as 5-10-20-40)
im ok with it.

the problem is this 40 you wish, compare to rest granting only 18 total from my picture (2x heros, 3x node)

no ruleset cannot change broken mana income ratio.

avatar
IniochReborn: You could also make a ruleset too, I'd give yours a try (although if I'm being honest I'd probably take any new ideas I like and put them into mine after :P )
I like Southern mod, I will check yours when have some free time. so far i'm only tweaking sea units, over and over again.
Posted July 01, 2020
@ Southern and IniochReborn.

One of you guys should make a clear cut list of the change requests for multiplayer....so And G can appraise it and see if it is something he'd be interested in doing.

Also, that makes about $130CAD between the 3 of us, right?
Posted July 01, 2020
Well, I suspect Mr. G is a high earner anyway, I don't know how much programmers earn, who considers his time and his vision for AoW more valuable than the offer of money!

As for my suggestions, the main one that hasn't been covered by others was simply that I think Rebuilder actions should be kept quite cheap, especially if they take a long time. Otherwise they may be not worth it compared to simply making more troops. This is especially the case as infrastructure can be seen as a 'luxury' and AoW+ has less gold, both in terms of revenue and even more so after deducting upkeep.
Posted July 01, 2020
avatar
southern: Well, I suspect Mr. G is a high earner anyway, I don't know how much programmers earn, who considers his time and his vision for AoW more valuable than the offer of money!

As for my suggestions, the main one that hasn't been covered by others was simply that I think Rebuilder actions should be kept quite cheap, especially if they take a long time. Otherwise they may be not worth it compared to simply making more troops. This is especially the case as infrastructure can be seen as a 'luxury' and AoW+ has less gold, both in terms of revenue and even more so after deducting upkeep.
Works for me! :)

What about you IniochReborn?

And most importantly (infinitely so), we still haven't heard back from And G. :(
Posted July 01, 2020
What is going on here...

First of all, while it's nice to see that my work is appreciated, I don't feel comfortable taking money for distributing a modified version of a copyrighted program. I would also like to focus on getting v1.4x to a state that could be considered finished; if after that there's still demand for a customised version then I can certainly do that. No need to throw money at me.

avatar
IniochReborn: Am I the only one running XP here? lol
... I mean, yeah, probably. I don't have an XP machine available but we can try to solve the issue remotely. First of all you should test if you can even start a campaign in v1.41; it's possible that this already causes a crash.

I'll reply to the rest later/tomorrow.
Post edited July 01, 2020 by And G
Posted July 01, 2020
avatar
Lagi_: "better scaling of cost"? please elaborate.
Unlike gold, most parameters pertaining to mana usage can be edited in a ruleset. Spell Cost/Upkeep/Research can all be balanced via ruleset, whereas many aspects of gold usage are hardcoded. So you can still achieve the pace of game that you want via ruleset edits.

As for scaling, the difference between the min/max of 2-5-10-15, is a 7.5X multiplier ( 2 x 7.5 = 15). With 5-10-20-40, the difference is a 8X multiplier (5 x 8 = 40). In that regards, it really is quite close in terms of scaling. The larger scale allows for more differentiation between combat spells for example (a range of 1-10 for spells that should be castable with Spellcasting I, versus only 1-5, which is quite limiting. It just allows for a much greater range of customization within a ruleset, whether it be for "low mana" or "high mana" playstyles, both would be achievable.

While it is true that a single Elemental Node can provide more mana than 3 nodes/ 2 heroes, I've always viewed Elemental Nodes as being very significant landmarks, mana's equivalent to a capital city., They can also be razed (especially crushing now), and lend strategic importance to often desolate areas.


avatar
Lagi_: I like Southern mod, I will check yours when have some free time. so far i'm only tweaking sea units, over and over again.
Don't try it just yet lol, our group is testing some pretty big changes intended to go along with And G's work. Agreed, SSS is quite well made, though not my exact vision.


avatar
Lagi_: Well, I suspect Mr. G is a high earner anyway, I don't know how much programmers earn, who considers his time and his vision for AoW more valuable than the offer of money!

As for my suggestions, the main one that hasn't been covered by others was simply that I think Rebuilder actions should be kept quite cheap, especially if they take a long time. Otherwise they may be not worth it compared to simply making more troops. This is especially the case as infrastructure can be seen as a 'luxury' and AoW+ has less gold, both in terms of revenue and even more so after deducting upkeep.
avatar
Lagi_: Works for me! :)

What about you IniochReborn?

And most importantly (infinitely so), we still haven't heard back from And G. :(
I often get burned out after making a map, so from that perspective I tried to keep changes to parameters that had already been figured out / edited. Of course a monetary offer is intended to try to sway And G, but I don't expect him to jump at a hundred-odd bucks. I guess it's also meant to show we appreciate the work and don't take it for granted. It would really mean a lot to a few long-time players. But goodwill only goes so far and we're asking a pretty big favour.

I agree with lowered Builder action costs. Really my only concern is whether a growing list of changes will be increasingly offputting to And G, so I tried to prioritize what was most important to me. But yes, to me it does make sense and would be an improvement. Let's include it if we can.
Posted July 01, 2020
Oh shoot, should've refreshed before posting. Glad to hear from you And G, and fair point on copyright. Well maybe we could at least mail you some type of AoW memorabilia as a token of gratitude. You're probably not interested in our tournament record books and I could never give away my painting, but maybe we'll gift you our tournament trophy and get a new one made. It's quite prestigious :P

Really excited to hear you're open to the idea! There will definitely still be demand haha.

As for Windows XP, 1.41 was fully functional as far as I could tell. Campaign and Custom scenarios (both vanilla and downloaded) all worked great. Though I did reinstall Windows XP on one machine, and the second XP laptop is known to run AoW and has or years, it would still be great to hear from someone else running XP. Just in case I've somehow made an oversight and no one else has these problems. But I've uninstalled/reinstalled AoW along with patch 1.36, followed by 1.42 on both machines, I can't imagine what error I could've possibly made. Guaranteed there are some lurkers with XP reading this that may be able to chime in.... make an account guys! lol

*PS if XP stability is not a huge consideration to you, I could easily just install Windows 10. My main rig already has it, and t's probably about time anyways, but have never had reason to as the laptops are essentially AoW machines only. I don't want to hold up progress if no one else is affected.
Post edited July 01, 2020 by IniochReborn
Posted July 01, 2020
Hi And G....yeah, I get your view on copyright + being paid. Still, we'd like to reward you for doing something none of us were able to figure out. $$$ is generally an easy way of doing so (no shipping costs lol).

Alright, so I guess Inioch+Southern can hold onto their 'change request list' for now. We'll focus on getting 1.4? to where you/we want it first.

I have to go to camp for today, but when I get home, I'll play the next mission in the campaign. So I'll post my thoughts on 1.42 by the end of the week.

Cheers guys!
Pages:
1
5
10
11
12
13
14
15
20
26
This is my favourite topic
Community
Age of Wonders seriesAoW+(390 posts)(390 posts)
(390 posts)