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Wizardry seriesW8 non-caster builds(22 posts)(22 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted January 25, 2025
It seems to me, that any non caster is best building up Strength and Dexterity first, then Speed and Senses. This allows for early game power, and middle game flexibility.

Of course, for your casters, you want Intelligence maxed for Powercast. Something has to be sacrificed, and that something should be Dexterity (Reflextion won't help your casters if they're not in melee range).
Posted January 25, 2025
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RChu1982: It seems to me, that any non caster is best building up Strength and Dexterity first, then Speed and Senses. This allows for early game power, and middle game flexibility.

Of course, for your casters, you want Intelligence maxed for Powercast. Something has to be sacrificed, and that something should be Dexterity (Reflextion won't help your casters if they're not in melee range).
Some things:
* Your build doesn't get Eagle Eye, which makes a big difference for any ranged focused character.
* Reflection does help casters if they're not in melee range (some enemies have ranged attacks), plus with enemies surrounding you and some enemies having extended range melee attacks, your casters could easily end up being in melee range. Also, Dexterity affects the rate at which the Alchemy skill, which some casters will want to use, improves, and contributes more to ranged accuracy than Strength.
* non-powercast builds are viable for casters, particularly Priests, hybrids, and any character you plan to permanently replace with a new one later.
Posted January 27, 2025
I took your suggestion to heart, but with my Level 34 Human Ranger, he did fine with maxing Strength and Dexterity first, then Speed and Senses. Note that Rangers start with a 25% profession bonus to Ranged Combat.

Please note that everybody in my party has maxed Senses, and unlocked and maxed Eagle Eye. This will help them on the hellish treadmill that is Ascension Peak, where you will need decent ranged combat. This is because enemies will scale to match my high-level party, and magic falls off (do you think that magic will do anything against level 40 Magma Scorchers)? Also, you have Gazers, which will cast Eye For An Eye at each other, making magic risky. There is a reason that so much ammo is laying around on AP.

Your casters should be resistant to magic, having maxed their realm skills. They should also not normally be in melee range (rare exceptions are against enemies like Savant Minion, who have extended ranged attacks). In these rare situations, you should use ranged combat/magic against them, and avoid rushing them, as they can hit your back lines.

Therefore, your casters' biggest threat are ranged enemies. You should always have your buffs up, such as Missile Shield, Armorplate, Magic Screen, Enchanted Blade, X-Ray, etc. In these ranged shoot-outs, your casters are the most vulnerable, and should protect themselves first with Guardian Angel, Bless, etc.

I have found that the specialist casters (Priest, Alchemist, Psionic, and Mage), are useless compared to the Bishop. They are limited to one spellbook, don't have any special benefits to the party (like the Ranger's Scouting skill), and tend to have the worst hit points and armor in the game. At least the Bishop can potentially learn every spell in the game, and the only penalty is being 1 or 2 levels behind the specialist casters.

Note that my Valkyrie and Ranger don't have Powercast, and are doing OK damage against weak enemies. Against stronger enemies, magic is almost useless. However, this isn't what they are designed for. They're warriors first, and casters second.
Posted January 27, 2025
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RChu1982: I have found that the specialist casters (Priest, Alchemist, Psionic, and Mage), are useless compared to the Bishop. They are limited to one spellbook, don't have any special benefits to the party (like the Ranger's Scouting skill), and tend to have the worst hit points and armor in the game. At least the Bishop can potentially learn every spell in the game, and the only penalty is being 1 or 2 levels behind the specialist casters.
Except that there are reasons to use specialists. Aside from faster leveling and the skill bonus (which can make level 7 spells more reliable at PL7), we see some other benefits.

Priest:
* More HP than Bishop
* Is in a better position to build fighter-type stats, leading to the Battle Priest build
* Also in a better position to multi-class into Valkyrie or Lord, if you want spells early (at the expense of long-term combat effectiveness, but that's not as important since the hardest part of the game comes early)
* Pray for a Miracle, which can, at high levels, cast certain spells at PL8 and higher
* (Unfortunately, not in a good position to learn Power Cast or Snake Speed)

Mage:
* Can learn Power Cast early
* Can also learn Snake Speed early, if a fairy
* Can use Styx (which, for whatever reason, Bishops can't use) and some daggers

Alchemist:
* See Mage
* Better HP than Bishop
* When resting, will sometimes create a potion; these can sometimes be quite powerful
* Can get some high skills at the start, due to having only 3 class skills; also gets the ability to make stronger potions faster, which is great for making money
* Happens to fit the Dracon race well

Psionic:
* See Mage
* Outright immune to mental status (except for the Destinae Dominus's insanity); combined with the Sane Mind spell, this may be the thing that saves you in certain encounters
* Only class that can use both Styx (for early game) and the Mindblast Rot (for later, if you decide to obtain it via trickery or turning the T'Rang hostile)
* If you want to optimize Intellgence + Senses, best class for that (this combination governs quite a few skills, including Artifacts, Communication, and Mythology; note that no class has Mythology as its primary skill, so Psionics are the best class for that skill)
Posted January 29, 2025
I see that all these minor benefits are great, in favor of the specialist casters. However, the Bishops can cast all spells in the game, which, for a party like mine, seems to cover all bases.

Note that the specialist casters would require you to have other characters to cast the missing spellbooks.

IMO, this only works in parties like my last MDP, where I had a Bard, Gadgeteer, Priest, Alchemist, Psionic, and Mage. In these cases, you get to stack magic, and get a taste for each "flavor" of magic.

In the vast majority of cases, you want a versatile, powerful caster, since they're using a character slot.
Posted January 29, 2025
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RChu1982: Note that the specialist casters would require you to have other characters to cast the missing spellbooks.
Or do without. Not every party needs to have every caster class covered.
Posted January 30, 2025
Here is my take on the caster battle:

Mage: Terrible HP and armor selection, 5% bonus to all resistances. Very minor bonus.

Psionic: Same terrible HP and armor selection, mental condition immunity. Very situational, useful the most on Bayjin and in the water.

Alchemist: The same decent armor selection, better HP than the Bishop. Makes potions, but these may or may not be useful to your party. Late game, it's more annoying, getting potions that you never asked for.

Priest: Can Pray for Miracle, though I, or any other posters I know, have ever used this ability. Gets the best HP out of all the casters, and gets a decent armor selection. Even a Battle-Priest, however, would be inferior to even a Bard or Gadgeteer.

Note that the tie-breaker is that these classes, even with 125 skill in their respective spellbook skills, and 100 to all their realm skills, would still fail to cast their level 7 spells at power level 7 with 100% success. This gives credence to the Bishop, who, while failing to do the same, still has the ability to cast any spell in the game.
Posted January 31, 2025
Hmm, not convinced that the later attributes matter much, at least in a normal game at expected finishing levels. Furthermore, all expert skills are technically useful, but none, not even powercast, are necessary. That being said, strength dexterity is the most generally useful. Damage, cc, and accuracy. Even mediocre melee and ranged occasionally come in handy.

I'd argue that no school of magic is technically necessary, but forgoing magic screen and element shield is reckless. Furthermore, missile shield and x-ray are useful throughout the game, making the classic mage priest line up great. A bishop is great once you know magical development. Which, incidentally, a beginner could figure out.

The real benefit of the mage is the starting points in realm skills. The bishop does catch up quickly, however. Prayer is more useful than critical strikes or potion brewing. Of course, it's less useful in an MDP. Even potion mixing isn't mandatory, but it is nice, even from a ninja.

Every class is good in a vacuum, it's just... the fighter, bard, and bishop are clearly too strong. Although, it's easier to make an extra physical combatant out of a specialist caster than a bishop, due to required attributes and less skill points needed for magical development. The bard is pacing based, albeit better than the gadgeteer. Finally, the fighter mainly does one thing better than anyone else, thankfully, they can do a bit more than that via artifacts, throwing, ko on ranged, and there's always dracon breath. Even if others can do all but one of those too. I think fighters are the most interesting in an MDP, but I understand why some never use them, at least bishops are fun to develop. I mean, my favorite class is the ninja, but they are hard to justify.
Posted January 31, 2025
I have my party set up such that the Fighter, Rogue, Valkyrie, and Ranger all have Strength, Dexterity, Speed, and Senses maxed. They have unlocked (and maxed) Powerstrike, Reflextion, SnakeSpeed, and Eagle Eye. This is arguably the most powerful non-caster build.

This is what you get from this combination:

Extra damage, both melee and ranged (Strength)

Best possible chance to hit, both melee and ranged (Strength, Dexterity, Senses)

Decent stamina (Strength)

Decent carry capacity (Strength matters twice as much as Vitality)

Maximum possible number of swings and attacks per round (Dexterity and Speed)

Best possible initiative (Speed and Senses)
Posted January 31, 2025
I had a lot of fun with my last MDP, consisting of a Bard, Gadgeteer, Priest, Alchemist, Psionic, and Mage. This gave me a taste of what each "flavor" of magic can do, respectively: Instruments, Gadgets, Divinity, Alchemy, Psionics, and Wizardry spellbooks.

I have found that each "flavor" of magic has its ups and downs, which is why I created a more comprehensive party this time around.

The Fighter and Rogue are doing some very heavy melee damage up front, particularly when I get them some *Light Swords*. The Valkyrie and Ranger are doing some OK damage with their extended range polearms, protecting the flanks. The Bishops, protected in the center, have trained with their Quarterstaves for melee damage. Both of them will be getting Staves of Doom (one guaranteed, one farmed).

Everybody is ok at ranged combat, once properly trained (my Ranger is the expert, with a Ranged Combat skill bonus and ranged crits). Note that even Bishops can become deadly here, with Wrist Rockets and good ammo.

In terms of magic, my 2 Bishops have maxed all skills, and have picked all the good level 6 and 7 spells that can't be found or bought. It's just a matter of resting at vendors, getting all their lower level spells. The Valkyrie and Ranger have no Powercast, so do mediocre damage against enemies (at least that gives me 2 more portal spells).
Posted January 31, 2025
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ZyroMane: The real benefit of the mage is the starting points in realm skills. The bishop does catch up quickly, however.
There's one interesting stort-term advantage of bishops here. A mage will always start with 0 points in Divine Magic, and won't be able to put any points into it until level 3, at which point you only have 3 points, making Magic Missiles, at first, rather unreliable. A bishop, on the other hand, can put points into that skill right from the start, starting play with 5, and reaching level 3 with 11 (or more if you take Heal Wounds, Bless, or Make Wounds and practice it), making Magic Missiles decently reliable at PL1.\
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ZyroMane: I think fighters are the most interesting in an MDP, but I understand why some never use them, at least bishops are fun to develop.
Often, if I'm using MDP strats, it's because I want to have a magic heavy party, perhaps even to the point where everyone can use magic. Furthermore, I may want to prefer using only full casters, those with caster attack progression. In any case, this precludes the Fighter class.

(Side note: I'm currently replaying Bard's Tale 2 (DOS version) using only bards, casters, monsters, and illusions. I am not at typical endgame levels, yet I have the means to throw around the most powerful offensive spell thanks to some unconventional but effective strategies.)
Post edited January 31, 2025 by dtgreene
Posted February 01, 2025
I just did a run in Trynton. I made it up to the point where you make a safe resting space, where the 4 braziers are, where you have to add Insense to the fire. Some of the enemies are obnoxious, especially the 3 tree enemies guarding the Pagoda Armory. Even my level 30+ party had to go a few rounds with them, due to their very high HPs.

Even playing on Novice difficulty presents challenges. For example, I had to keep the 2 Trynnie Guards alive against the 4 Rapax Scouts, using instant death magic against them (this is my first encounter with the Rapax Common faction).

I give myself easy (Novice) difficulty, but I am tasked with ensuring that all friendlies (and all party members) survive every battle. Also, no Pickpocketing or Shoplifting. It's a fun way to play.
Posted February 03, 2025
Speed isn't exactly necessary, but I do like it as a third focus. With a bard it doesn't matter much, but getting that third attack faster is really nice, and the extra swings are nice too. I don't care about initiative. But, maxing initiative can be fun, for a party with just two casters, the casters can get by maxing senses and speed first, now that's fun. I prefer vitality for the third focus, becuase the sens bonus is small. Sure every bit helps with ranged, but without unlocking eagle eyes, who caress, and, well, I just love seeing high c.c.

Now, I probably should have made my ranger and, especially, my fighter get eagle eyes, but, oh well. There's an argument for the gadgeteer to pick it up too. It's also the sort of party where getting powercast on the ranger makes sense. But, many have completed the game with melee parties, so, whatever. This party should have rather good magical damage for most of the game, the casters are getting powercast, after all.

I put no points in realms on my bishop, and, even then, her best realm is divinity. Magical missle really is great, and no one leverages it as well as a bishop, who can also get all the good single target spells. The bishop is just too good. But, if you do like I do, they are, not great, at level one, and that's a choice rather than a rule! But, I'd argue no class is truley obsoleted by another in this game, but I get why people might feel that way about the ninja, and especially the lord. I love the hybrids, but they can be hard to justify. Hmm, maybe a lord, samurai, monk, ninja, priest, mage party is in order... someday.

Fair. Like melee, magic damage is better the more one has. So taking a character with no magic is usally antithesis. Honestly, for me, it's just that the fighter/warrior/knight/etc. archetype is my favorite. Especially when high strength and heavy armor. One could use a valk or lord for that in this game, though. I'm trying magic with a martial in some NES games right now. (Optimal is less fun, after all.) I do enjoy getting all types of magic in an RPG where possible, but not really all spells. The opportunity cost is often too high. I've gotten over most of my party building scruples, but I still loathe repeating classes. I should be able to make that a preference too. It's funny, I never had that issue with repeated races. But, yeah, the three bishop, three fighter party is probably rather enjoyable.

I've found that challenge runs really aren't for me, thus why I kept fizzling out with the hybrid parties. There's a sort of attitude that questions why challenge and not play on hardest difficulty, but, well, that's dumb. Like many things, it's rather relative. I like expert, becuase skills feel like they rise faster. Which is due to longer battles and larger spawns. The hybrids would be more fun on novice, however, and expert pushes the player towards magical damage, and how. I used to not like that, but I've gotten over that, much like how I tend to prefer ranged parties in DMCs, magical is the way for this game, and that's A-okay. Doesn't mean all the character slots have to be casters of some type. Might be a good thing that, despite all the thinking, I'm still rather comfortable with my selection fo classes. The builds and races could be better though, oh well. The real lack is weak ranged damage. The party is rather strong otherwise. And ranged damage isn't that important, but it is nice.
Posted February 03, 2025
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ZyroMane: Speed isn't exactly necessary, but I do like it as a third focus. With a bard it doesn't matter much, but getting that third attack faster is really nice, and the extra swings are nice too. I don't care about initiative. But, maxing initiative can be fun, for a party with just two casters, the casters can get by maxing senses and speed first, now that's fun. I prefer vitality for the third focus, becuase the sens bonus is small. Sure every bit helps with ranged, but without unlocking eagle eyes, who caress, and, well, I just love seeing high c.c.
Idea to try:
* Bishop (chosen over Priest because Bishops are in a better position stat-wise for builds not focused on physical damage or survival); favor the Priest spellbook early game
* Race: Haven't analyzed this yet, though I'd be inclined to go with Elf (chosen over Fairy because of Snakeskin Boots), though one might want to at least look at Felpurr
* Stats: Speed + Senses, to get as high an initiative as feasible. Intelligence as 3rd priority (so Power Cast comes late)
* Skills: Divinity and either Wizardry or Alchemy (we want Element Shield); maybe use sings once Senses maxes out
* Spells: Early on, status ailments could be useful (if your party isn't an MDP); later on, focus on ally-targeted spells. At the highest levels, offensive spells become an interesting choice

With all this said, I think that, after a certain point, you don't need more initiative, and I'd be wondering when Power Cast gets learned.
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ZyroMane: I do enjoy getting all types of magic in an RPG where possible, but not really all spells.
I grew up on Bard's Tale, where you were sort of expected to eventually get all the spells on each caster in the first two games. (Bard's Tale 3 introduces 2 new casting classes with completely separate spell lists; one requires giving up all your old spells to access, and the other needs to be accessed from a non-spellcasting class.)

And also Wizardry, where class changing lets you get all the spells.

And Dragon Warrior 3, which has one class that's separate (Hero), but allows other characters to learn all the non-Hero spells via class change.

One thing I really enjoy, and which unfortunately doesn't happen in Wizardry 8, is the fast leveling the comes when leveling up from level 1 after a class change.
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ZyroMane: I still loathe repeating classes. I should be able to make that a preference too. It's funny, I never had that issue with repeated races.
For me, my criterion is less strict; I avoid repeating the same build. I'm OK with using the same race/class combo (and I see race as usually not being a significant factor long-term), but I'll at least choose different stats for them. Like using a caster bishop and a combat bishop in the same party.
Post edited February 03, 2025 by dtgreene
Posted February 03, 2025
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ZyroMane: I'm trying magic with a martial in some NES games right now.
I do often like build characters against type, sometimes, particularly when there can be advantages to doing so.

* Eventual idea for the Bard's Tale remastered trilogy: Get a Death Dagger, then put your mage in the front lines. (Watch out for enemies that drain all your SP in the third game.)
* Etrian Odyssey has one particular skill on the Medic class that does good physical damage. EO2 has that skill as well, but it's the sort of skill you really need to build around due to it being heavily dependent on strength, which is low for the Medic. (When I beat EO1's post-game ultimate boss, my Medic was not my healer.)
* In Star Ocean 2, I remember using Rena as a physical attacker. I'd control her, and have Noel (I think that's his name) act as my main healer under AI control. (Although, sometimes I'd spam Star Flare.)
* In the SaGa 2 remake, there's now magic circuitry that can allow Robots to become viable spellcasters; I've done this.
* In Final Fantasy 3 (3D remake; this doesn't work on 2D versions), I've found that the Red Mage works nicely as a physical attacker endgame, while providing some extra healing if needed.

Another thing: Many players like to min/max to make a character really good at one specific role; I often like to instead try and get diverse skillsets on characters. (One reason I dislike skill point systems is that they tend to encourage overspecialization.)



By the way, I've been sometimes going with builds that aren't long-term optimal, because they're so good early on; this is especially true when the early part of the game is harder, and/or when the game lets me create new characters mid-game (something I wish more games did).

For example, in my current Bard's Tale 2 playthrough, I have one character who got the following spell levels, in the following order: Magician 3, Conjurer 3, Wizard 5, and Sorcerer 7. This character will never learn spells like Restoration and Apport Arcane (though I have other characters to handle those spells), but it allowed me to get Fire Elemental summons early, not to mention Baylor's Spell Bind (most fun spell in the game, particularly when used on that one enemy that casts Mangar's Mallet (most powerful attack spell, but also really expensive) every single round), and I did at least make sure to get the most powerful spell in the game before becoming an Archmage.
Post edited February 03, 2025 by dtgreene
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Wizardry seriesW8 non-caster builds(22 posts)(22 posts)
(22 posts)