I've heard that, if the party level is at least 9, you'll encounter level 13 Tanto Wasps, but if you go at level 8, the wasps will only be level 6.

Thing is, since those tunnels are skipable via fake combat, I don't know whether it makes to go there right away, or to wait until later. The notable treasures are an Amulet of Healing (very nice, but buyable and there's another in Marten's Bluff), 2 Chromatic Lyres (not worth it because they're heavy and Silence isn't that great of a spell), and an item that is part of one of the level 7 gadgets, but that can wait until the Tanto Wasps aren't a threat. I'm not using RPCs, so I don't care about RFS-81.



Also, I've been crushed by that little plank of wood when trying to operate the mine cart.
The one issue with an alchemist, for this sort of party, is that Alchemists can't learn rest all. They can learn Stamina, but note that there's only one Stamina book before Sadok. (I actually had one of my Bishops pick that spell at level up; if you take advantage of fake combat, it's a decent spell for training Water, and my Elf Bishop can get Alchemy practice this way.)

My current party is level 8, and ready to leave Arnika now that I have X-Ray. I think I'm going through Arnika-Trynton Road (try to avoid encounters with X-Ray, undecided about the graveyard), Trynton (probably reload if I see Rapax spawn; can get the Lava Lamp and a Spirit Staff here), and the Swamp (getting some gadget components from Crock), and then Marten's Bluff. I did not do the vault, so no Bloodlust (I find that I often can't bring myself to steal the treasure in Arnika), but have otherwise cleared Arnika (though no Mook building, of course).


Been thinking of maybe trying that game and its sequel on an emulator at some point.

Back to Wizardry 8, if I were to make a new party containing all 5 full casters, what would you recommend for the 6th slot?

I remembered one other thing about my current playthrough: I got the Holy Water spellbook drop, so no need to pick that particular spell this playthrough.

Got the Port-o-Potty, now heading for the Mine Tunnels. Level 8, with enough XP for level 9. Alchemy still not high enough for Cure Disease, so money isn't yet as plentiful as I'd like.

Upgraded to Stun Rods on my Ranger and Valkyrie. (My Valkyrie did get an instant kill on a high HP enemy that just happened to be right were the catapult is.)

(The astute (is that the right word?) reader may realize that you normally go through the Mine Tunnles first, unless you use a trick to skip it; I've actually skipped it and am now going back to it.)

I took that approach myself, of doing the T'Rang quests before allying with the Umpani.

The Mine Tunnels are not hard at level 8, particularly if you have decent magic offense so that the big groups of mosquitos die quickly. (I hear that, at level 9, they're Tanto Wasps instead.) Also, no Deathsting Apuses in Marten's Bluff.

With T'Rang Teleporter access and a bit of trickery, the T'rang quests go rather quickly, and give me enough XP to reach level 11, allowing me to skip the level 10 slog. (Seriously, in my experience, level 10 takes too long to get out of normally, and is probably the most painful level, particularly since it's one level before many builds get interesting; level 11 gives stamina casters the ability to heal and elven bishops the power cast skill.)

For the T'Rang quests:
* Umpani Flag: Easy. Just use the teleporter to warp there. To get back, there's a weak spot in the bar that allows you to go into the wall, and from there reach the room behind Kunar. You do need to be careful not to leave the wall in the wrong spot, as you can't go back in without going all the way around. (This is an out-of-bounds trick, and it can be used to reach Marten's Bluff without going though Arnika-Trynton Road, Trynton (ground level), or the Swamp.)
* Rapax assassin: Easy with the perfume.
* Chaos Moliri: Done normally. This does require going back to Arnika (via T'Rang Teleporter). At this point, you can get the X-Ray Gadget, if you have a Gadgeteer.
* Ship coordinates: Tell Z'Ant they are 10:24. You do not actually have to learn this in game to give them and receive the 300k XP reward.
* The last quest I intentionally don't do, and there isn't an easy way to do this at a low level.

Also got the Stone Idol, then quicksaved before anyone in my party went missing. This ended up making everything dark, but quitting Wizardry 8 and restarting it fixed that. After reloading, I had the stone idol and no missing party members, allowing me to skip one part of the game I really don't like. (The Idol has a warning about Crock on it, for some reason.)

The T'Rang quests go so quickly (Umpani Flag, Head of Raven Rapax, Chaos Moliri), that I want to know why anybody would ally with the Umpani first, with the constant risk of being detected. I am doing it the "hard way", about to go to Bayjin to get the proper ship coordinates from the black box. At least Jan-Ette can get my Priest a Light Shield.

Reasons one might ally with the Umpani first:
* The player reached the Umpani first, and did not know about the T'Rang yet (other than what the Umpani say about them).
* Kunar sells some nice stuff, but you need to join the Umpani first. This includes level 1-3 Fire and Earth spellbooks (though, for whatever reason, Whipping Rocks isn't available until party level 11).
* The player allied with the Umpani in Wizardry 7, and imported that save file. (By the way, which faction's quests are faster and/or easier in Wizardry 7?)

Worth noting that a new player is not going to know how to glitch into Kunar's secret room; in fact, most players are not.

On the other hand, it's worth noting that, assuming the player doesn't attack non-hostile NPCs, the player only needs to visit the Umpani base camp for the flag if going with the T'Rang, whereas Marten's Bluff has a required item (the Stone Idol) that requires going through most of the area (in addition to needing that T'Rang arm).

The first Class of Heroes has a lot of the same problems of LoLS, but with more complex systems. The Second one strays further from Wizardry, but I haven't touched it, so I don't know much about it.

For five casters, my gut is bloodlust bard. But I bet any class could work, even another caster.

The Holy Water book is nice to find when one has a bishop. I tried scumming it once, and found out I don't have the patience for such things, but I do like when it does drop.

My path usually gets me to level eleven by the swamp... and that's why I don't care so much for the spell-casting thieves. Not that they are bad characters, but they make me want to rush to Marten's Bluff, and I'd rather not.

That, indeed, is the cromulent use of astute.

They do indeed become Tanto Wasps far before the party is level eleven. But I usually get to there where they aren't that much of a problem. Resting is harder in that area than most. Of course, at level eleven, one might be able to set a tele-portal at a certain fountain... That requires two such casters, though.

The curious player would know about the T'Rang, Umpani, and Mook from Aletheides. But they may not go to Arnika first. I go to UBC after a quick quest fro some demon-slaying gear. Typically for the shop. Impaling stones, spellbooks, and a hayai for the Samurai are all quite useful at that point. But the xp for the obstacle course, and the L&T training in the barracks are also nice. The latter, of course, isn't necessary for power-gamers, and doesn't require joining the IUF. The flag can be purchased, and the barracks raided, for one wishing to only side with the T'Rang Empire.

Technically, the game can be completed without getting the idol. But, well, unless one meta-games, why would they?

Getting around being detected isn't too hard, I've heard. I haven't had it happen yet, but that's just dumb luck, since it's simply random.

I've never had level ten take that long, I there about rattkin or swamp, and then level a few from the retro dungeons I was already in the area of. That's also about when a ninja will get over fifty locks & traps. I'd just run crock side quest straight, or meta with teleportation. Of course, I've actually never done the latter. It's part of the game, so meh. Annoying if it's an "elite" that gets kidnapped though. I actually don't know what the chances that each character will be the chosen one, but I've heard it likes not to choose fighters. I remember it was my alchemist in my party with each specialist caster, a rogue, and a fighter. Which is also annoying, since... earthquake. But, I did it straight anyway.

[So, I was wrong. The last dungeon, in FF, was harder than I was anticipating. I got there at level twenty-two. I finally finished the game at twenty-six, when the red wizard could finally cast ARUB and prevent the knight's immediate demise from a nice CRACK. I've been meaning to finish the NES FF with the default party for years. I guess that means I should finish the Famicom release of II soon, since I've been meaning to do that too. But now, of all things, I am running Dragon "Warrior" III with a soldier, a merchant, and a fighter. I'll probably be playing Final Fantasy again before I know it. Maybe I should try the PlayStation release someday.]

I'd prefer not to use a bard or gadgeteer unless I'm using both (like I am with my current party).

As an alternative to resting, you could by some Magic Nectar and/or Mana Stones (Crock sells the latter) and use those. You are still likely to be at the point where the SP recovery is considerable. Later on (like 20s level wise), one charge isn't often enough; it seems to restore around 180 SP when it's possible to use up to 140 SP with a single spell.

Level 26 is around when you get level 8 spells in classic FF1, though only for white or black wizards. Red wizards start getting level 8 spell points around level 32, but they don't get any spells with which to use them.

In classic FF1, white mages aren't that good until they learn CUR4, at which point they become *really* good. They're much more useful in more modern versions (GBA and later), where the Heal line of spells is really good, and practically mandatory for the superbosses and Chaos. (The PR doesn't have the superbosses, but it still has this version of Chaos.)

In the original Dragon Warrior 3, I found fighters not to be that useful, because of limited weapon selection. The remakes fixed that issue, making them a really good class, and one I prefer to soldier/warrior.

Interesting tidbit: Playing the SFC and GBC versions, I've found that I reach the end of the game before I get the Healus spell, meaning I actually get the Sage's Stone before getting the spell that it casts for free.

Back to FF1, on the PSX version's easy mode, a level 99 Monk/Master is *really* powerful. Some actual figures:
* Against normal enemies: 8000+ damage
* Against bosses: 6000+ damage (Chaos has "only" 4000 HP in this version)
* Against flans, 3980 (exact) damage, but less if the enemy is paralyzed or otherwise disabled
* If I'm fighting a frost wolf, have used the Giant's Glove 26 times, and have haste active: 50,976 (exact) damage. (Note that you get this damage without overflow, unlike GBA where an integer overflow will occur before this point.)

Does it have:
* The problem where enemies do so much damage that healing spells are no longer useful later on, and the only solution is to finish the battle as fast as possible?
* The issue where you actually need to find a rare drop to do enough damage later in the game? (Spells don't scale well enough.)

By the way, I remember hearing about the game releasing around the time of The Dark Spire, another game I played. I note that, in TDS, it is magic spells that dominate in the late game, and some battles are won by whichever side gets the initiative. (I also note that TDS is really an adventure/RPG hybrid given the nature of its puzzles, which gave me a similar feeling to Wizardry 4 and La-Mulana.)

Well, locks & traps aren't needed. Depends on how to get enough melee damage on a caster party. The easy solution is a fighter, but any warrior can help. Seeing as earth tends to be least resisted, there is only one guaranteed staff of doom, and maulers can be purchased, starting with bishops who change, mostly, into priests and alchemists is a way to go. Of course, the bishop can use a mauler too, just have less points to spare on weapon skills, and will be at a lower level. Elementals may help too, and a psionic's bonus is nothing to sneeze at for the peak. Mage is actually, probably, the least useful in the long run, if doing a six bishop class changed into specialists run. But I've yet to crunch the problem, since I have a warrior spirit meself.

Yeah, and heal—and, to a lesser extent, greater restoration, and mass heal—is broken in Neverwinter Nights, such that many mods nerf it hard. That, alone, isn't enough to make cleric not the strongest class. Of course, I was thinking healaga would have been useful for Chaos in PR. Heal staff/helms was not enough, especially on such low int characters.

But the crit rate! Sure, one can max stats on a soldier... but who would do that to themselves, especially on the NES. But multiple people have done three fighters playthroughs, which, along with four black belts in FF, is something I might do sometime.

I don't know if I'd play easy mode, but I'd definitely disable auto-re-target. Makes the game more fun.

Turtling usually isn't as fun as mass offense. It took FF XIII's doom-casting bosses for me to learn that. :) I say that as someone who mained Orisa the Bunker Queen, and enjoyed Assault.

I've heard that the equivalent of the bishop's barrier also loses its effectiveness late-game. I've also heard that end-game gear is via grinding, but the alchemy system might mean that it's not actually as bad as LoLS. Of course, LoLS is fine, except the deep levels, I gave up on that garbage, but the main game, and the trials dlc, I've finished. I've heard that the cover ability is much more useful in CoH though, and that magic is actually good in the sequel, which, I believe, uses an MP system, or some such thing, and one of the caster classes is downright broken. But, I got bored of CoH pretty quickly, so I don't know how much of that is true. Good battle theme, though.

To me, it feels like the problem with healing in D&D (and Wizardry, for that matter, if we exclude 4 and 8 as well as any Japanese spin-offs that have upped the power of healing magic considerably) is not so much heal being too strong (though I'd argue that maybe D&D shouldn't have something like mass heal, but having a powerful single-target heal is fine), but rather other healing (cure spells in particular) being too weak, making them not a viable combat strategy. Boost those spells so that they're strong enough to make an impact, and now the cleric no longer needs to be overpowered in other ways to make up for the fact that what one might see as the class's primary role is too weak. Make players want to heal, rather than trying to bribe them with other things.

(Worth noting that D&D heal is the equivalent of Final Fantasy 1's CUR4 (CUR4 even cures status aliments (including poison) when used during combat) or classic Wizardry's MADI. It's also interesting that both games inherited the same healing issues (though note that in FF1 this only applies to classic versions (PSX and earlier), as GBA boosted healing significantly).

I note that, at least in AD&D CRPGs, how powerful different classes are dependent on the game. In particular, they're really good in Dungeon Hack and Icewind Dale for a few reasons:
* In both games, scrolls are scarce, and arcane casters don't get to pick new spells at level up. (Gold Box games give you spell picks, as do Dark Sun games and Temple of Elemental Evil.) This heavily favors divine casters.
* Dungeon Hack implements a food mechanic, where if you don't eat enough, your food meter will empty, at which point you're starving and can't rest. Clerics get a couple spells (Create Food and Water, as well as Heres' Feast) which will fill the meter up fully when cast.
* Dungeon Hack also has a powerful Spiritual Hammer spell, which means that a Cleric doesn't need to rely on the random dungeon to provide a decent magical weapon.
* Also, in Dungeon Hack there are spells to counter many of the other dungeon hazards.
* Icewind Dale, on the other hand, is filled with undead. In fact, undead are so common that a solo cleric may be able to get through some dungeons much faster than other characters just because of being able to turn undead at a high level, which destroys weaker undead. (I note that undead are so common that Rangers can't just select "undead" ad a favored enemy; you have to choose between 3 categories of undead.)

(There's also the fact that, for philosophical (and what might count as religious) reasons, I don't think the association of religion (which the term "cleric" implies) with healing magic makes much sense.)

Auto-targeting has one rather interesting effect on game balance. Specifically, it makes multi-target instant death attacks more useful, as you can't predict which enemies will die, and auto-targeting means your fighter-types won't waste their attacks on the enemy that happened to fail its saving throw against that effect.

Worth noting that FF1's instant death spells aren't that reliable, but in FF2 (and FC FF3), with the right setup they may actually become *too* powerful.

There are two main substitutes: Forcing doors (can get you through the Monastery) and Posseur's Cap, perhaps assisted with magic.

Mages are also an issue early on, when low HP is a big problem, and their 5% resistance boost just doesn't feel good enough to compensate. They're really only good for getting things like Fireball and Power Cast early. Given that even a Bishop gets more HP, and can still easily learn Enchanted Blade and Missile Shield, it's hard to justify this class.

Alchemists, on the other hand, get 50% more HP (more HP than a Bishop!), can heal, can cast their spells while silenced, and have that unique ability to create potions while resting. And, unlike Priests, they do get strong offensive magic; they just are missing a few of the key early spells (Magic Missiles and FIreball most notably).

Psionics at least have one significant trait, their immunity to mental status ailments, that maybe justifies the lower HP than a Bishop and makes the class have a purpose, even if there's only some fights where it actually matters (but those fights tend to be nasty ones).

The sequel to LoLS addresses at least some of the issues with that game. In particular, there's a Sorcerer class who has the ability to cast a boosted spell without needing to focus for a round before hand, at the cost of lower defense for this round; furthermore, this ability scales with level. This means there's one class whose offensive magic actually scales to be useful later on. Plus, this ability affects instant death spells.

By the way, in LoLS, the mage's focus does affect instant death spells. Unfortunately, the game is so offense oriented that the two rounds it takes to pull off this trick are one too many, and your mage might not survive this long. (It also affects healing, incidentally, but with a party-wide full heal spell in the game, there's not really any point.)

Interestingly enough, Saviors of Sapphire Wings and Stranger of Sword City give the classes some similar abilities to LoLS; fighters can concentrate to get 3 attacks next round, Samurai can attack multiple enemies, Wizards can focus to hit multiple enemies, and Healers/Clerics can put up barriers (which aren't as good as in LoLS).

I did the T'Rang questline the right way, having actually found the Black Box from the crashed ship (along with a gadget that makes Boiling Blood, and Asphyxiation later on).
The Bard/Gadgeteer/Priest/Alchemist/Psionic/Mage combination works well, as everybody has decent attack spells. All six level quickly, and the low hit points of the Psionic and Mage don't seem to matter with high level (35) and the Cloak of Many Colors for everybody (virtually guaranteeing that most enemies not in the Mountain Wilderness or Ascension Peak do nothing to anybody).
I guess the safest thing to do now would be to hard save, now that the T'Rang questline is done (before destroying the Umpani ship). At this point, join the Umpani, pay off He'Li, then soft save. Talk to Z'Ant, if he's hostile, reload, otherwise, hard save?

They do, however, matter with low level (1), and far more playthroughs see level 1 than see level 35.

Guardian Angel can help, but that's only single target, only one character in the party can use it until Marten's Bluff, and even then you don't get it until level 3, so there's still the very beginning of the game you have to play without it..