Well yeah, since he was the one who made up the Dragonslayer story in the first place.

(EDIT: pictures or it didn't happen: http://i.min.us/idUid0.jpg)

Germanicus - I agree entirely! :) And yeah, we can't take everything Dandelion says at face value. Haha.

I think there's been a bit of a misunderstanding - I know Iorveth knew about Saskia being a dragon; I said that Geralt (and likely the player) did not know from the start. I meant, when her true nature is revealed to the player/Geralt. :)

Not really.. there are humans in Lobinden who like the elves because of Cedric's protection, and you can hear their NPC banter where they defend the Elves verbally. Dandelion believes in the same ideals, Triss even shows sympathy to the Scoia'tael. Sure, I mean, it's possible, but it was never really shown to me in the game other than Zoltan and Dandelion's drunken bawdy talk.

I don't think it does, either! Where did you get that idea from?

Meh... I agree it is possible in theory, of course, but it was not shown nor developed well in the game, if that was their intention. Also, in the English version, Saskia does flat out reject the notion of Iorveth as a romantic interest. So... that was responsible for some of my confusion. The different translations contradict somewhat on this point.

I know they are, and of course he can! But to be honest, in my opinion a love story between Iorveth and Saskia WOULD be predictably typical fantasy, oh the Elven freedom fighter and the dragon in the form of a beautiful blonde virgin fight for the rights of peasants and ghetto-dwelling nonhumans. It feels way too cheesy and non-Witcher-universe-like. I think the scenario I suggested towards the end of my original post feels more in tune with the Witcher world (to me personally).

I agree completely; of course I don't need to hear certain words or kissing to believe there is a romance. That's exactly my point. It wasn't convincing just to hear about "mushy love eyes" and to hear some lewd comments from Zoltan and Dandelion on the matter, for exactly that reason. That doesn't really do the job of hinting convincingly at a romantic union. Dialogue and voice-acting can do that, as illustrated in Triss and Geralt's relationship (even if we ignore the sex scenes). Also, by your own logic, one shouldn't assume that two characters are or should be romantically and sexually interested in one another simply because they agree politically, are of opposite gender, and are both attractive. :)

Haha! No, just no. Baby doe-eyes on Iorveth. Just no. Haha.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on some things, but I'd just like to underline that I'm not against any expressions of sexuality and I don't think hugs and snuggly kisses were necessary to hint at a romance. That wasn't at all what I was driving at.

One more thing about this - the Lord of the Rings comments were fourth wall jokes. They can't really be used as evidence of character traits, imo, bc that reference doesn't exist in the universe of the characters. It's a wink to the audience, not character development. :P

Also, you're Canadian? Me too. ^^

+1 to everything dmajek said

Don't get me wrong, I am not opposed to romance (I don't think anyone here is), it's just that nothing made me believe there was one. I remember being taken aback by Zoltan's (rather crude) comment the first time I played - it just came out of nowhere, to me. Iorveth and Saskia shared the screen for about 0.2 seconds before she fell ill and then he went away to get more archers. IDK where townspeople got their ideas from anyway.

It's true that we cannot rely on animation to read character's feelings, but you can still tell by the way they speak to each other. Just look at Geralt and Triss' interaction, or how Geralt speaks of Yennefer.

That baby doe eyes comments is still cracking me up :D It's probably hard to make with only one eye, lol.

Re: LotR jokes, The Witcher books often reference/make fun of well-known fairytales. I guess the devs thought it would be funny to poke fun at LotR. I agree that the one about the Ring dragged on a bit, but the lembas joke cracks me up every time, if only for the perfect use of "dh'oine".

Thanks for your thoughtful replies. First things first, I'm not a Canadian, I've just been studying in Canada haha.

I didn't say that just because both have the same ideals, opposite sex, and attractive that they are romantically and sexually interested in each other (although it definitely helps). And I would hesitate to use "love story" on Saskia and Iorveth - I know, this is just a matter of semantics - but I agree it implies cheesiness and it doesn't suit the gritty and messed up the Witcher world is. Does being in love (one-sided or mutual) necessarily lead to a "love story"? Not really.

As for your comments about her ideals inspiring sexual interest, I have a few things to say:

1) I didn't say that it was the only thing or the main thing that potentially inspires sexual interest (I assume this is what you meant by "Sure, I mean, it's possible, but it was never really shown to me in the game other than Zoltan and Dandelion's drunken bawdy talk. ").

2) How is she distinctive than the others, such that she caught Iorveth's eyes (this was in response to your comment in a previous post that surely Iorveth can't be attracted to her because he must have seen plenty equally / more charming dh'oines)? Yes, others have shown sympathy and even empathy to non-humans. But Saskia took up arms, rallied the peasants to actually fight against oppression and to fight for their freedom - hence making her distinct from the others.

Note: This is not even counting the fact that Iorveth already knows that Saskia is a dragon.

"Haha! No, just no. Baby doe-eyes on Iorveth. Just no. Haha. "
- So are you suggesting that Geralt is describing Saskia with these words? That would be even more contradictory given your theory - that Saskia doesn't regard Iorveth in a romantic way.

Yes, there are only hints - Zoltan's comments, Geralt's observation and Polish Saskia's reply - that there is a possibility of romance / sexual interest between two. I see the main argument being that "the game doesn't show the romance aspect", for which I reply that it is a very subtle thing between those two and I must emphasize once again that there is much in the background unseen by the players/Geralt. It is possible that both parties have conceal it well, especially Iorveth that cunning bastard.

So what am I saying with all this?
1. It is possible for both parties to have sexual/romantic interest in each other.
2. There are hints of it, although both parties conceal it well - they are not "out in the open" as Triss-Geralt - but to flat-out reject this notion because the game does not show it (visually or in one of the localized version's ending speech) is to downplay the complexity of character behaviour and relationship.
3. On the nature of love? Yes, you're not one to think gestures = romance, that is good. But there's another thing, characters can love/have sexual interest but still not act on it. So no, Saskia saying those words is not out of character at all.

And yes, it is possible for Saskia to have sexual/romantic interest in Iorveth, and for Iorveth to have a similar interest in Sakia.

p/s: I think I need a summary. This is a bit convoluted.
p/s2: Regarding the example (LoTR reference) I used for the "baby doe-eyes" comment, I'm afraid you miss my point - admittedly it is not a very good example. Yes, it is a fourth wall thing. But I am trying to argue is that Geralt's speech can sometimes be exaggerated and irreverent.

I apologize if I sound a bit heavy-handed in my posts. I am actually trying to address a few others who posted.

Ok I agree with your assessment about the baby-doe eyes (in the English version). The Polish version seem to be less ambiguous in this matter, although some dispute its... hmm... how do I put it... logic?

I see I managed to convey what I proposed :). I wasn't trying to say, "yup, those two are in-love (or boning each other), no doubt"; I was just saying, the game doesn't show it, but there are hints that suggest that it is possible for the two to have something more than a mutual respect and admiration. So, when Saskia said that she showed interest in Iorveth in the Polish version, I don't think it is unreasonable / out of line.

With regarding the hints,
1. Yes, Zoltan might be exaggerating with the smiling like a doll, staring at her tits, and having a stiffy for her - but in the very least (assuming you don't completely dismiss his remarks) Zoltan sensed something more than admiration in Iorveth's demeanour.
2. Dandy's remark - I don't remember this. So I can't comment on it.
3. (Polish) Geralt's remark - yes, it's possible that he's just repeating what those two said. But from what I've seen (pardon me, I've not read most of the books) he doesn't repeat words without any proof or thinking that there's some truth in it. It is equally possible that he has observed the same thing. And in this game, there is a lot that Geralt knows that the player doesn't.
4. (Polish) Saskia's reply - seems to show interest.

Like you said, it's a subtle thing, that Iorveth-Saskia relationship. The game doesn't make a big deal out of it - hence the lack of concrete/substantial proof that some needed. I'm not arguing that this romance/sexual interest must exist, I'm arguing that you can't deny that such a thing is possible without being contradictory to both characters.

About what Iorveth says about "kill her if you must". It doesn't preclude romantic/sexual interest. The most it means is that he doesn't put her above everything else. I can interpret it several ways:
a) Bros before hoes. Geralt saved his life, showed him the betrayal of Letho, showed him that he is willing to fight for freedom of the oppressed, showed him that he is willing to fight Phillipa (super-powerful Lesbomancer) to rescue Saskia.
b) If let's say Geralt wasn't able to defeat Saskia because he wanted to spare her. That would cause her to remain in Phillipa's command and screw up his ideals, regarding the future of Aedirn / fight for non-human.
c) Or more personally, Iorveth doesn't want to see Saskia in this way, she would have been lost to him.
As for Iorveth (creepy) smile first, question-later attitude - He is very relieved to see his friend survive (without which Saskia would have no chance of redemption).

Btw when did Dandy comment on Saskia-Iorveth? And what did he say? I must've missed it.

Well, this thread has certainly come alive, even if it's a bit of a side-tracked topic currently on the table. I don't mind, though. :)

I don't feel very passionately about Iorveth/Saskia either way. I play the game my way, and interpret it my way, even if I welcome the occasional discourse, of course; sharing opinions and thoughts, and trying to understand one another is usually stimulating and healthy. Anyway, I've just always viewed Iorveth's feelings towards Saskia, as the kind of love one feels towards a person of worship, such as a deity. Already in the Prologue do we find out that the Scoia'tael kneeled down in prayer when the dragon appear. It is never made clear whether Iorveth is the only among them who knew about the dragon's true identity, but I assume it's not something you want a lot of people to find out - point being, elves are ready to worship dragons were they ever to come across one. This is exactly the type of love I see in Iorveth's actions and conversations regarding Saskia; that of a follower who is allowed to meet face to face with its god. Couple that with the fact that Saskia is fighting for a freedom the elves have long dreamed of, and you definitely have a strong sense of love and admiration, but it doesn't make sense to me why this would have anything to do with romance or sexuality. Also, why would a dragon express any sort of interest in pursuing a physical relationship with any humanoid? That's what I gather from the final conversation with Saskia (English version): That she honestly can't see herself truly bonding with either of the humanoid races, but she then admits that she finds the dwarven race fascinating, at least; most likely because of their shared interest in caverns and treasures. That's where I leave this, and I would personally feel a bit awkward if the relationship between Iorveth and Saskia grew into something more than this. This doesn't mean they couldn't make a cute couple, but I can't seem to read anything like that from what we are shown or told in the game, no matter how subtle or ambiguous.

Dandelion at one point says "so you didn't notice those mushy eyes/baby doe eyes?" to Geralt, when Geralt asks about Iorveth. Mushy in Polish, baby doe in English. I got it before Zoltan's comment, at the inn in Vergen.

About Geralt, you mentioned you believe he wouldn't repeat something he didn't believe - he did phrase it as a question to Saskia, not a statement. :P

About the relationship being subtle - again... nothing was subtle about the stiffy comments nor the way they were suddenly thrown down in front of me.

About the speculation as to Iorveth's reasoning.. sure. And I can come up with lots of speculation as to why he doesn't have romantic feelings for her. That's the problem, we can speculate till the cows come home. That's why I was focusing more on specific instances of actual in-game dialogue, some of which contradicts itself between Polish and English on the nature of their relationship, as well as in-game actions.
Another big part of this, which hasn't come up enough in our discussion despite its blatant obviousness, is that Saskia is a dragon. She's as liable to be sexually attracted to a humanoid as a humanoid is to a dragon. When I see a dragon, I think of it as a beautiful, majestic, and deadly creature, but I don't get wet at the sight of it. That's also why the dwarf-comment in English feels more suiting (and funny!). Choice given, dwarves seem the closest thing to a dragon to Saskia out of the humanoid races. They tunnel in caves, search for treasures, and hoarde them. Hehe.

I'm just going to have to quote myself here: You can have respect and admiration, and even love for someone without it being romantic or sexual, even though some folks, such as drunken dwarves and lewd bards, might not understand that!

I see. Dandelion's comment. Although he is one who goes over the top and makes irreverent remarks, he doesn't really... hm... make things up, at least not in front of friends. Exaggeration, yes, but outright creating something that wasn't, not much of his style. He is also a very sharp observer of things, for example when he was captured, he managed to identify his interrogator as a Nilfgaardian because how the latter phrased an event.

As to Geralt repeating what Dandelion said, you might be correct, but then again Geralt might have just found Dandy's words befitting the occassion.

Relationship can be subtle, what is not subtle (that you pointed out) is the comments on that relationship.

Regarding your comment about speculation, you did use the what you observed as a support that there is no (romantic) feelings between the two, hence the lengthy speculations. In other words, I'm giving an alternative interpretation of the same scene.

Iorveth is probably not getting excited over her dragon form, but over her comely human form. As to dragon-human relationship, there is Three Jackdaws and his two Zerrikanian female companions (which he has crazy sex with).

So she says that she prefers dwarves, but added that she does prefer elves over human. So it is neither a clear yes/no with respect to Iorveth.

I am arguing that with what the game presents us,
1. It is inconclusive whether they have something more beyond mutual respect / admiration.
2. Arguing either way (yes there is something going on between them, or nope they just admire each other and maybe love but not the romantic kind of love) doesn't really require Iorveth / Saskia to be out of character.
3. Hence there is nothing really about the Polish VO that I consider contradictory / makes less sense, so to speak.

In addition to that, yes, dwarves comment is funny, but I would argue that it is more out-of-the-blue than the "Actually I could use a man" comment. As you have speculated about possible dwarf-dragon relationship, I could equally say that there are more proofs (not substantial, but more substantial than speculation) to support the theory that she would be interested in Iorveth.

It is pretty amusing (and stimulating) to discuss this matter in such depth haha. No I'm not passionate about it either, my arguments are based on observation from a disinterested point of view, not based on how I feel. I don't claim to understand what Iorveth is thinking, but again, I must repeat that he is attracted to the female human form of Saskia and not the dragon form, if he is indeed attracted to her that way.

In one of the short stories I think (might be Bounds of Reason), Three Jackdaws (Saskia's dad) has intimate sexual relationship with 2 Zerrikanian female companions. Well, at least, how the story describes it seems to be. Why would dragons like intimacy with humanoids? Beats me. Maybe they are curious, maybe they find the sensation pleasant. But you can't deny there is a precedence here.

Will they become a cute couple or not, how awkward is that doesn't really matter in our discussion, at least not when we're trying to decide whether such feelings are possible based on speculating using what the game presents us.

Yes, there is nothing substantial to support Iorveth-Saskia (assuming you dismiss the words of Geralt's long-time companions and dismiss the "awkward" Polish script) romance or sexual attraction. But I am convinced that there is also nothing substantial to preclude that attraction of such nature can possibly exist between the two.

Yep, that's the one. TW2 seems to be based/heavily inspired by that story.

I love this thread, it turned into a nice discussion :) I have nothing to add since you guys said it all. I'd just like to know where Zoltan was looking to have made that *ahem* observant comment :P

Oh, I hadn't read the thing about Saskia's father! Interesting.

On a side note, quoting in-game dialogue/referring to in-game sequences is not speculation, and interpretation around them is, well, interpretation. Different from speculation still, imo.

I don't dismiss the words of Zoltan and Dandelion, but their opinions are affected by their personalities; they're not the mandolin of truth in all situations. :P

Anyway, "inconclusive" is indeed a good way to describe it.

At the end of the day, I'm sure we all agree both Iorveth and Saskia are two incredibly well-written characters. Otherwise I don't think so many people would care so much about this. :)

Gods...! The game has been out about six weeks now and I've been playing it ever since it was released, and I still have to take a deep breath every once in a while, when I realize just how amazing the writing is in TW2. I... so happy.